D8/D10 from biomass issues?

I have read that isomerization from d9 to d8 and/or d10 require heat and either acidic or basic conditions and that media in RBF is commonly the cause…But would it be possible to get this side reaction as a result of any issue with biomass? Mold, PM, pests, pesticides, etc? Using CO2 by the way.

Appreciate any and all input–thanks!

1 Like

I’d like to know if so! I think converted flower would be a pretty nifty product if it could be made in a nontoxic way.

2 Likes

Sorry if I caused a misunderstanding–but I mean to ask if biomass issues could cause isomerization during the distillation process?

One thread claimed phos-chek could cause isomerization on outdoor contaminated biomass. Makes sense since it has clay and other inorganics in there that could cause/catalyze isomerization. That is phos-chek from plane drops during wildfires.

3 Likes

I don’t know exactly how acidic the conditions need to be during distillation to cause the conversion(I’ve had it not work with low levels of citric acid) but if any of those issues caused a severe enough acidic condition I suppose it’s possible.

From personal experience I’d say no, none of those problems will cause any significant amount of isomerization, and I’ve certainly run more than my fair share of all of those issues through the process and tested the results.

2 Likes
2 Likes

Yeah the suspected isomerizing compound was the surfactant used.

4 Likes

My reaction is to say that the level of microbial growth present on the material at time of extraction would need to be massive before the mixture might see pH trending up or down.

It seems very unlikely

Does your wash see any CRC type treatments? or get stored for long periods before solvent recovery?

The material does get scrubbed with celite and neutral AC. It is certainly possible some celite got to the RBF but the quantity would have to be fairly small to escape notice…

This is probably what’s causing your isomerization. Try neutralizing the crude before you distill it.

2 Likes

Fascinating. Is this something inherent to CO2 extraction? I’ve had batches with no isomerization but several with.

do you know how limestone caves happen?

https://www.bgs.ac.uk/mendips/caveskarst/caveform.htm

same issue. CO2 + H2O => carbonic acid

4 Likes

Especially supercritical CO2 has the ability to extract plant acids into the crude. Depending on how the plant was grown, it can affect the relative pH of the extract.

After several lengthy conversations with the manager at the analytical lab, we worked out isomerization being the cause of <90% results on distillate I was making. Crude analysis proved varying levels of acidity based on the source of the material.

Balancing the pH allowed for 94% TAC distillate. Although we deemed the time and effort associated with the cleanup not financially significant.

1 Like

Very interesting. I very much appreciate all this input. I’ll be doing a lot more reading. Our isomerization issues are quite significant…as in <5% d9 after distillation.

This is most certainly a possibility as well, I was never able to confirm or deny that despite trying. My test was to use the same source material at various levels of moisture content, which despite having more water volume extracted, did not affect the pH between batches.

2 Likes

Very, very little H2O present in our old trim where I saw isomerization. What kind of quantities are we talking for massive conversion (70-80%)

no clue. I haven’t managed to wreck distillate by getting the pH on my crude wrong yet.:crossed_fingers:

  1. I don’t process with CO2
  2. I avoid dropping dry ice into the ethanol I extract with…because that has also been reported to be problematic (although we’ve got a couple of folks who don’t see issues). Anyone use dry ice for winterization [direct contact] ? @Roguelab, @Demontrich

@ExTek90 has seen the problem specifically with CO2, and isn’t convinced that water is the primary issue.

Edit: don’t take offense at “…wrecked distillate…”. I often refer to extraction as “destroying cannabis”… because every now and then that’s what happens :shushing_face:

No offense taken. To me, it is wrecked. Just trying to narrow down the possibilities.

I’m getting around 70-80% isomerization it seems to me (lab doesn’t currently test for d10, CBC, etc,–so it’s an educated guess that’s where my THC ran off to)

Also these runs were being decarbed post-extraction.

I specialize in therapeutic cement.

Mostly CBD infused.

2 Likes