It is a FOOD PRODUCT…ring any bells?
Actually I have had very good “luck’ and 7 years experience…
If you actually read the PNAS article posted above…you will find you need a ternary solution to produce a spontaneous non emulsion, non micelle , “louche’. As your readily admit, two of your ingredients are cannabinoid and water…now look at the
GRAS list FDA food products that is acceptable for the 3rd component. Choice emulsifier , detergent-micelle or Louche.
Or edible complexing agent…if you don’t understand what I am saying…I can’t help you. But a stable product that produces a spontaneous Ouzo-like water solution….as you describe…
One known GRAS chemical…is simply Ethanol….
When your solution is mixed with cannabinoids AND then added to water…you describe a Ouzo-like solution is obtained.
You described it as such…but if that is the depth of your knowledge, it is likely you are describe a ternary phase “louche”.
But really have no knowledge of what you have. The spontaneous appearance is a key description. If I were you I would read the PNAS article on ternary phase phenomena noted above.
I am sure you feel that the proportions of elements you put into your alcohol water mixture that you are trying to sell is proprietary so I am not going to mention ratios…or modifiers which are common to the “the art”…
Thus you are marketing some form of material you are telling people to mix with their cannabinoid products in their home states where they are licensed…but you are not going to tell them what it is that you want them to add to a product for human consumption?
How do they list your component….”Hudini’s magic”
How is it you want to market your product?
In your 20+ years in the Cannabis Industry (2002 really)
You have never seen anything like it……
But I’m telling you 100’s of others have seen similar solutions.
We all are, and without that basic info its not even a consideration and i’m not signing shit to get that. That tells me its expensive and they know the knowledgeable people here will call it out preventing them from luring in the clueless.
@moronnabis I really appreciate your interest in the chemistry involved, as I do for the critical feedback everyone provided. It’s a fair product, it compares well to the other products in the market as far as the onset time goes. As far as particle size in the final emulsion goes - it’s a work in progress. Does it involve a revolutionary technology? Of course not! It’s known since Biblical times. Are there similar products in the market? Of course there are! Not identical, but obviously similar. And as all of you understand, we want to strive to produce simply a better product… not one out of the moon.
But what may set the team apart here, is that the strengths and weaknesses of this product, and that of several others to come, will be pointed out precisely to the eventual clients - the manufacturers. Hence, they can make an informed decision on which product to employ under what conditions. Please understand, it’s horses for courses, and there’s no one solution that fits all.
And no, it’s not ethanol. More than 0.5% (w/v) ethanol is not allowed in licensed cannabis products, in most states, as far as my knowledge goes. The compound, possibly responsible for the emulsification, is a very simple, well-known, highly conjugated (hence colored), compound, which came into much focus during the COVID times. And the chemistry… again possibly responsible, is a π-stacking between the compound and the π-system of the cannabinoid. If you’re more interested, we can always discuss later.
Houdini: “Forget about nanormulsions and encapsulation. Forget about expensive equipment that essentially will only be used for these processes. “
OK with me…I think maybe your distributor misdescribed the product a bit. You are clearly describing the product as an emulsifier…and your final product an emulsion.?
Ok…but the spontaneous aspect…needs some explanation ?
The Ouzo effect…? If it works as you say…I t doesn’t really matter as long it is GRAS. @cannasura , are you the inventor and Houdini the distributor…?
OK wishing you success with the micro-emulsifing solution.
Since it is only a mixing solution…you can sell it anywhere, being non-cannabinoid, and assuming meets all FDA requirements as a food product….it is rather unique to this market and may have great value.
Ethanol based tinctures have long been part of both the medical and recreational cannabis markets. Oregon stumbled and accidentally made them illegal for a while, because the put residual solvent requirement on them that couldn’t possibly be met. They then backpedaled.
Quick search suggests they are prohibited in WA, but permitted in CA,OR, and CO…
Someone probably stated this before, but you can plate cannabinoids onto maltodextrin powder and make a cheap water soluble powder that way. Nothing too crazy about that - although I believe there is a patent out there for it.
That’s cool but you’re still using pegylated stuff, no?
Beyond q-naturale and lecithin/phospholipids, I haven’t really found a scalable solution that’s “clean label.” Except for possibly @moronnabis louche stuff.
I understand your point now. Yes, ethanol tinctures have long been available. Unfortunately, this isn’t based on ethanol, and because it isn’t, the issues with oxidation are a tad more than you can experience with ethanol. It’s yellow in color because of its active ingredient, but if stored inappropriately, it may get bleached. You do have to store the base in a cool, dark place, away from direct sunlight, to get the expected shelf life. Once the cannabinoid is dissolved, the resultant solution has to be stored in a cool, dark place again, but it can’t be refrigerated - the solubility of the cannabinoid goes down in the low temperatures and it crystallizes out or separates out as a different phase. As I mentioned before - the base works but it has its limitations… if you store and use it according to the instructions, it serves its purpose pretty well.
I actually read about SNEDDS for the first time today (I’m not a physical chemist), and I thank you for bringing this up. What I read, it seems to be similar in principle to SNEDDS, but possibly a more hybrid model. But yes, the emulsification happens only after water is introduced into the system. Before introduction of water, it exists as a homogeneous mixture… to a naked eye, it looks like a clear solution. There was no DLS done, at any stage of the process. But what you get, after introduction of water, is certainly not a nanoemulsion… particle sizes are a tad bigger. Irrespective of the particle size, the onset times look good (there were no bioavailability studies done; the only thing known are the onset times).
Also, you mentioned your emerging solution had 150 mg/g of Δ⁹-THC - that’s 15% (w/w). This solution will unfortunately have only around 5% (w/v) of the cannabinoid concentrate, and since the density of the solution is around 1 g/mL, it’s ~5% (w/w) or about 4.5% (w/w) of active Δ⁹-THC (considering the distillate has 90% active Δ⁹-THC).
