A few weeks ago I speculated that the recent injuries coming from vape carts might be due to a toxic gas like cyanide.
Cyanide?
This seemed plausible to me because the cyanide ion is a kind of thermodynamic sink.
Combustion or pyrolysis of compounds with carbon nitrogen bonds often results in a cyanide byproduct.
I pointed out that acetonitrile which is used in liquid chromatography behaves this way.
Many other compounds too.
This AM, I took a look at the structure of Mycobutanil.
No question heating this stuff will produce cyanide ion or HCN.
Many other nitrogen containing organics do this also.
Methinks this mystery is being solved.
A one minute exposure to 2000 ppm HCN is 100% lethal.
Any idea of the conversion rate? As in, a cart with 2000ppm of myclobutanil would convert to x ppm of HCN. Assuming literally all of it converts.
There was an example of this in one of the many vape illness threads. The thought was that even at a 100% conversion rate, the level was still less than the HCN one would consume from cigarettes. But I dont know shit…that’s what I read on here.
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Even if Mycobutanil converts mole for mole to HCN, I can’t see that there would be enough to lead to immediate lethality.
But some folks hit vapes really hard so who knows.
The Mayo study found chemical burns in the lungs which implies a pretty strong concentration of the active agent.
I tend to think it may be some other nitrogen compound that acts as a precursor to HCN.
Urea fertilizer might do the trick but it would still be a low concentration.
My worst fear is that this is intentional.
One thing about THC is that it is the only psychedelic without a nitrogen center so I am pretty sure it doesn’t have anything to do with our favorite ingredient.
If the Chinese will gladly ship Fentanyl and other massively toxic drugs anything is possible.
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people smarter than myself have said that hcn wouldnt present like that in the lungs. necrosis sure but this was “like mustard gas” which points toward an acid. id love for someone with a biochem background to drop in on this though
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Is there a toxicologist in the house?
Need I SAY THIS IS A SURVIVAL ISSUE FOR OUR INDUSTRY.
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There is always the black market.
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Taking a wild fucking piss in the wind here as I am completely unqualified to answer any of these questions but…
If pesticides were the case wouldn’t we have seen issues from smoking weed, shatter, any dabs, diamonds, terp sauce, etc over the years?
Seems to me the timeline adds up to when MR extractor released his shit to the market. The amount of foul grade D distillate I saw going into carts over the years and literally no issues? The timeline still points to MR extractor IMO but who knows. Haven’t been following too closely the last month so if I’m completely off here on key pointss please let me know. I will gladly delete this comment if i’m way off course.
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Not really, my legal business depends on vapes and as a nine time convicted felon, I can’t afford another issue with law enforcement. I can barely afford the case I’m fighting now because I’m considered a habitual criminal offender. Last year I was caught with 3lbs in town, the year before I was pulled over in Utah on the way back from Cali with 150, I’ve got a child on the way now and I’d much prefer that the vape issue gets sorted so that we can continue our business legally without taking a hit. Attorney fees to fight felonies are not exactly cheap. Just this month I’ve had the east precinct drug task force raid us because someone called in an “anonymous tip” that we had a meth lab. We suspect the neighbors. We’re all legal and permitted to work here by both codes and the fire marshall and are legal with the terms of state law. so there was nothing they could do but the point is, I can’t do anything without them climbing up my ass and trying to arrest me and have no desire to return to an unregulated black market that will swallow my money in FBI forfeiture or attorneys fees. I’m sure for some people thats a viable option but not for all of us.
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From the thread showing vit E acetate didn’t cause VAPI through lipoid pneumonia: Researchers Say Vitamin E Likely Isn’t the Culprit in Vaping-Related Ailments - #13 by Ruwan
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I agree with this
There was a time when people thought myclo was okay to use on cannabis
Ppl were not dropping dead, and I guarantee the concentrations of myclo were higher back then than now.
If I had to take a guess I’d say contamination from the manufacturing process of the cartridge itself.
Most this stuff has been on the black market which means no pesticide testing, so pesticides could be the issue. But like I said above pesticides have been around for a while and no ones been dropping dead because of them.
I haven’t heard of anyone dying because of sauce, diamonds, shatter, or any other form of concentrate besides distillate in disposable cartridges. I guess nicotine products are also affected. The CDC said 16% of the people who got sick only used nicotine products.
I wonder if it could be that Chinese honey cut.
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Whatever it is, it would have to be there at the several percent level to get the acute tox effects that have been reported.
It doesn’t seem likely you could get that much contamination without intentionally adding something containing the contaminant.
I have not read one report where investigators actually recovered a suspect cartridge so we are all still guessing.
Panic has set in and states are banning everything vape related for political reasons.
Hopefully someone will figure this out soon before too much damage is done to the industry.
The possibility that this is intentional is still open, the tainted Tylenol cases come to mind.
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Why not make a few carts with certain terp companies vit e additive, then send in to cdc for testing to compare notes
480,000 people die a year from cigs. I am not convinced of the argument that its “less than a cig so it’s not the culprit.”
2 cents.
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Agreed. But we are comparing levels frequently consumed that are potentially higher than in a vape cartridge, that didn’t lead to this “illness”, and I think that would be relevant. If 480,000 people die a year from smoking…do any of their lungs have these mustard gas like burns?
I said I don’t know shit, and I’m regurgitating info from one of the other dozen vape illness threads. . Did you miss that part?
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I wasn’t attacking you! Lol 
No I missed that part…my regards.
As far as mustard gas burns - you ever seen a smokers lung 
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Sorry man…much of what I deal with at work is semi confrontational in nature. My attitude from that bleeds through on here at times, I apologize.
I’ve seek the pictures of a smokers lung, and I’ve never heard of the damage from smoking described as a caustic or mustard gas like…but then again…I dont often read about such topics.
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I’m definitely not an expert in this area and my comment will differ from the thread initial subject. One thing that thc vapes do not have in common with nicotine juices and tobacco is the percentage of volatiles. I have the intuition HCN is much less plausible of a cause than terpenes in high concentration. Many of us have seen terpenes corroding a plasticware… Why would they not be doing the same with human tissues?
The death from cigarettes is slow and gradual. This is killing young people. It’s similar, but different.
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It’s just not enough cyanide. You get a similar amount from synthetic B12 among other things.
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