I hope to be posting some butane results in the very, very near future – just trying to find a space with the correct licensing to test
10 Likes
Hey……. I probably have the facility and licensing you need to further your research.
8 Likes
Oh that’s great. Dm me. We have equipment and everything just looking for space. My lab is only licensed for alcohol.
8 Likes
I disagree that a cascade is more applicable than a single stage. That would depend entirely on the specific design and size of the extraction system as well as it’s geographical location.
Any system using only butane should be able to get away with a simple, cheap, single stage split system running r404a (or one of it’s replacements) with a working temp around -25C to -30C.
It is true that a cascade system would generally offer greater heat removal capacity (and of course lower possible temps) for a similarly sized unit but the large majority of extraction systems out there are relatively small, use butane and really don’t need the extra complication of the cascade system IMO.
In a single stage split system with the compressor placed outside or on the roof, who cares how big it actually is? It could be pretty huge and it wouldn’t matter because it’s outside. When you have it crammed inside the case of a Huber you need it to be small and quiet. Point being for butane there’s a lot of room to upsize a single stage system before you need to go cascade.
If you’re running a propane system it’s different and you’ll likely need a cascade system to reach lower temps and capacities but butane should generally be no prob on a large single stage system.
Of course you must take into account the ambient conditions. A chiller for an extraction system in Arizona is probably different than for the same exaction system located in Maine or Alaska.
In industry “ultra-low” generally means -40C to -86C. This will always be a cascade system because r404a bottoms out around -40C. Most extraction systems aren’t running propane and could get by with just a “low” temp single stage chiller that is good down to around -30C.
The most expensive option IMO is to spend $200k on Huber chillers with the baked-in expectation that they don’t work well and you’ll need to upgrade soon like the OP of this topic. At least they’re good shop heaters for the cold months.
Below are diagrams of a single stage and a cascade system to help illustrate how much more simple and less complicated a single stage system is. A single stage system is basically an active recovery extraction system, isn’t that interesting?
2 Likes
I agree with everything you said but I think for a butane extraction system that only needs -30C or so a large single stage system can get the job done very easily in most climates.
As I have shopped for chillers over the years I have seen that most manufacturers will guarantee temperature performance of their single stage r404a systems, usually down to -20C or -30C, up to ambient temperatures of 35C which in my mind speaks to their robustness at these cooling temps if sized correctly.
Depending on ambient conditions and how close to -40C (the limit of r404a) you want to run I believe there is a trade off between going with a larger single stage system and smaller cascade type. This is a question for a professional and I don’t doubt at a certain point (for propane especially) a cascade would be recommended.
Things like making sure the compressor outlet temps/pressures and evaporator temps/pressures are playing nice with each other and making sure the amount of superheat is within range are some other things that I would be seeking the help of a professional on before I even thought about buying a system.
2 Likes
The pics below are some examples of what I would expect the compressor package to look like on a single stage refrigeration system of a butane extraction system. These are outdoor units and even though they look expensive they’re not that bad especially compared to what people are forking over to Huber.
Keep in mind, a company like Huber that only makes fully enclosed scientific chillers would be much quicker to switch to the more complicated cascade type versus just upsizing the r404a components to get large heat removal capacities because they need to cram everything into that small rolling frame and that’s much easier with a cascade type. Like I have said, you pay a huge premium to have them engineer everything to fit in that small case.
Also, I think some people don’t really understand what it means for Hubers to have a rated temperature stability of plus or minus .01C. That is incredible precise and you pay a lot of money for it on top of the money you pay to have everything crammed in the small case. That’s what the Unistat operating principle is all about: precise temp control. This is why it took Bizzy hours to cool a rack of jacketed tubes to -70C with a 915w and 10ton glycol chiller.
Do you guys see what I mean about how all this other split refrigeration equipment has been available for years but because it’s not wrapped up in a nice bow with a pot leaf on it and sold at a trade show I guess people would prefer to severely over pay Huber and Bizzybee?
It really is highway robbery Bizzy is committing each time he sells a 915w/CS100 combination to one of you. IMO you people who have paid for this should be pissed. You have been taken advantage of. There has been so much time for Bizzy to sort this out but I’ll bet he takes a huge cut on each Huber he sells so he hasn’t taken it to the next step like Bhogart.
How do you guys feel with your overpriced, underperforming Hubers while Bizzy constantly talks about baller dinners and partying? Isn’t he almost 50? Maybe he’ll let ya come hang out at his new house he’s buying in Hawaii with all your money.
Does anyone remember that little phase he went through recently trying to convince Precision to buy him out and sell his equipment after he talked so much shit about them? Then all the talk of being a crypto asset manager or trader? I mean this guy is basically a self-described LARPer in this industry who’s just here taking your money at this point. Not that it really matters but does the guy even dab oil?
9 Likes
I agree totally, -40C is really the dividing line IMO for single stage. If you really actually need the process fluid to approach that, you’ll want to switch at least to a two-stage single refrigerant system if not cascade.
I also agree that it’s ridiculous that people spend so much money on an ultra precise chiller and then come post here and don’t even have a good method for measuring their process temperature. Also, the vast majority of shutdowns IME are related to automation parts or diagnostics that aren’t mission critical. Chillers should be like Toyota pickup trucks: nothing should break but if it does, it shouldn’t necessarily stop the thing from running. These Huber units are more like a GTR that won’t start because there’s air in the tires instead of nitrogen
7 Likes
@Tech1145 Wanted to give you an update. I have had the system up and running for over a month now and the Hubers work great.
Are they overpriced? 1000%! But, I have yet to run another system like it. I would love to set up demos of the system you are describing to see if it would recover as fast (3-4 lbs a minute) at temps below -50C. And to see how it would handle a heavy mixed solvent load. It sounds like it would do just fine but when it comes to spending say 100 vs 200k and there is a risk of the 100k option not coming out right then id rather spend the 200 and lock it a sure thing. It may sound crazy but spending even 50k if the equipment doesn’t work properly is a complete waste.
The whole reason we get charged so much is because they know we can pump out 6-10k grams out in one shift. haha The truth is if you can sell the product these things pay for themselves the first month.
When I first made this post I was barely up and running. I just had been hearing rumors through the grapevine that my huber cs100 may not be enough to properly back the 915. The only time the cs100 trouble is after turning them off for a day. The CS takes 1-2 hours to really work down the 915 without overheating the next morning after a shut down. Once they get to temp they are both holding great.
Currently, I am running at -60 C.
6 Likes
Glad to see you got it dialed in how you want it!
2 Likes
Cryodax is high grade.
I agree with the -30c as well as the freezing the column jackets.
I’ve had nothing but problems with every Huber product I’ve owned.
At one point had 5 broken units.
All to the dump they went lol
2 Likes
You had me at “Luna”, now you’re adding membranes?
5 Likes
Wait until I tell you the latest news!!
6 Likes
Next time you have a truck full of broken chillers going to the dump, give me a call lol. I’ll happily pay over scrap value
6 Likes
Let me correct my self
These were unistat heaters that went to dump. the chillers are sitting broken.
1 Like
@SidViscous can fix em both @norcal420 hes a wiz with that kinda stuff!
3 Likes
I’ll pay freight!
Joking aside, I’m always happy to help troubleshoot. It’s my dream that one day my company will allow me to buy something that isn’t broken when it arrives, but it’s trained me up pretty well lol. @The_Lone_Stiller I appreciate the vote of confidence.
5 Likes
These Huber units are more like a GTR that won’t start because there’s air in the tires instead of nitrogen
HAHAHA, next time a customer calls me, I’m using that one.
2 Likes
The Huber’s are very reliable and precise, which are two things you need when setting up a process design for the lab especially in a licensed setting because as part of QA they need to ensure the SOP is followed to a T every time, that includes temp set points and anything that is different is considered a deviation and must be documented, and who wants to waste time on extra paperwork?
OP has the option of actually running their 915w off a water rack coming into the building, the con to that is the constant waster drainage/waste … if you have a body of water near by you can circulate from and it usually stays around 10c than you can make due (I only recommend this if said water is treated/clean enough for the pretentious internal materials used in the Hubers) but if you want the 915w to service below -40c, you’d definitely need an AC circulator running that because now your talking about needing 9-5c temp consistently on water side and of course the go to would be to have an outdoor unit.
When we get to -40c and beyond you start to generate a lot of heat rejection, granted once you get to the target setpoint the water coolers usually tone down a bit and don’t create significant heat rejection but its the initial demand when starting out at RT that makes soo much heat rejection, and the goal is to move it outside. Unfortunately alot of designs are not like this and often times you see significant HVAC refrigeration requirements as a result.
My two cents overall, Huber’s are expensive, Bizzy is expensie, ROI capable? yes? most efficient, maybe not but its reliable, and a quick go to, and a lot of these companies are okay with paying the higher price for better capability and hassle free setup, do they always get that? Sadly, no. They should, its just unfortunate sometimes and I know there have been folks who’ve been sold a dream in the past. As the years go on, the prospect is that will becomes less and less of a thing, hopefully…
3 Likes
Mmmmm… Not really…
3 Likes
Yeah just buy like 12 of those Chinese -80 and treat them as crates of rubber gloves that eventually get empty.
Some people are actually pretty good at servicing those -80.
2 Likes