Fraction Finder Reviews

THCA came back at 100% THCA, 1.5% THC & 1% terpenes. :shushing_face:

And yes, it absolutely shows a little color.

44mg HTE vs 20mg of Isolate.

Spiked my blank from above with the HTE (44mg in 20ml) pulled from the same (hydrocarbon) extraction the THCA was pulled from.

my math says they’re pretty comparable concentration wise.
I’ll get overlayed GC traces tomorrow.

Edit: GC trace. Red is 1mg/ml “THCa isolate”. Black is 2.2mg/ml “HTE”. Sample that shows higher signal on fraction finder has LESS cannabinoids….

Caveats: HPLC would show 10-15% decarb in the HTE (at a guess).

Here is the spectral trace for the HTE. You can see the “lipids”…(those don’t fluoresce either).

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That’s badass that you can provide side by side data between the fraction finder and the SRI GC. Which honestly begs the question, why in the world someone would spend the money on the FF when it’s already priced within GC price points. I get that “magical” detection of noids in toobs would be much more streamlined for continuous processes, but it really makes you think that the tests you are doing prove that the FF produces qualitative results at best. Above all else, the fact that this data had to be dredged up by someone who has both pieces of equipment (and is not associated with the mfg) smells a WHOLE lot like a company that wanted to recoup r&d costs on a product that does not do what is advertised (give a quantitative measurement of various noids)

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without an auto-injector, the dozen or so injections + 11min run times is a whole lot more work that having a device that could inform my operator(s) when the task was complete.

I’m NOT going to sample every min during extraction for every extraction, so I can dial in a particular biomass, but can’t switch that up on the fly and expect the operator to achieve perfection.

Ideally I want a device that I can integrate into the control system on my fuge. so I push go, and it decides when the extraction is complete.

which was why I was over the moon when Arometrix told me they could build such a critter.

and lets be honest here, following pigment as a proxy to track extraction is absolutely why we get folks doing month long soaks to make RSO. It’s getting darker. so it must be extracting more. the fraction finder is not an un-useful device. it just isn’t tracking what I’d hoped it was, and I’d rather not use a proxy for my cannabinoids if I can avoid it.

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on the fly data is a lot more useful than 5-30 minute results. especially when your extraction process is less than 30 minutes total.

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So after reading the responses, it is absolutely clear that such a device would be groundbreaking for processors that want more resolution in their data sampling frequency especially in processes that can’t easily be sampled such as SPD. I too am aware of the caveats of sample workup with the 310MM and its lack of built-in autosampler. I was really intrigued while reading this thread and the others regarding the various units created to fill the gap. My gripe was mostly with the fact that all of this data should have been made available for people before they dropped that kind of money on it. Take for instance SRI, not only did they supply chromatograms for various cannabinoid samples but also the videos and information required to get off the ground with their units. I have yet to see any claims made by SRI about their equipment be debunked (which is why I bought one). Why is it acceptable for the Arometrix to make bold claims about cannabinoid UV fluorecence detection just to come to light that its the pigments that are actually influencing the detector? Like the tests that @cyclopath has done should have already been done and published by Arometrix as an example of what a real world test might look like for your average user.

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Agreed 100%

Just glad i didnt pull the trigger on the c1d1 model and throw away another 9 grand. I was about a day away from buying it too.

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Link to their peer reviewed paper above…and below.

We use proxies for figuring out what’s going on in all sorts of applications.

I’ve long used color to figure out how my extraction is progressing, we all have…

I haven’t used a fraction finder on a distillation yet, but I’ve got two SPD set up to do just that.

Curious to see what they see.

Reasonably sure at this point that whatever IS fluorescing in the 420-440nm range is not co-extracting with THCa or CBDa in ethanol between -40 and 0C.

The Fraction Finder has always called “done” early.

I interpret that as either the actual fluorescent compound extracts faster than the cannabinoids, or there is a limited amount that extracts in ethanol in the temperature range I’ve explored.

Dunno.

Moving on…

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I really appreciate the clarification in what the published material states and what your findings state. I don’t know my ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to analytical chemistry and fluorescent spectroscopy but I really do appreciate someone gambling on a device and following up with what their actual findings are.

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Our technology isn’t always the answer. Our product is constantly improving and evolving based on new research and data from our customers and partners. We are a small startup that started with the observation that something inside the distillate fluoresces and that this can be really helpful in cannabis processing. We did the first fluorescent cannabis research since the 70s and published it. We progressed, doing additional research and noting that specific isolated cannabinoids do indeed fluoresce. And there is a ton more that we have to learn. The reality is that it doesn’t matter if individual cannabinoids fluoresce for molecular monitoring to be useful. We are not an analytical device like an HPLC, we are a process monitoring and control device. What is important is that the technology can detect meaningful process indicators that can enable the operator to improve outcomes. We’ve shown this over and over again on short path distillation systems, and are continuing to investigate additional applications, including wiped film and butane extraction. We’ve helped operators see oddities, reduce processing times, and improve their results.

What fluoresces? Generally simple molecules don’t, and many complex molecules do. For example, Butane doesn’t but D9 does. In short the principle of fluorescence has to do with double bonds, their conjugation, as well as aromatic rings. There are many nuances to fluorescence. This nuance often makes it difficult to study. We’ve noted that most terpenes don’t seem to, but we haven’t done enough research to rule out anything. For example, tonic water containing the alkaloid Quinine does fluoresce - and it’s actually the demonstration we do at tradeshows to exhibit fluorescence.

There are a lot of solutions that look at color and pigments to make determination. I am sure color has its place in process improvement, but that is not something Arometrix focuses much effort on. However, one of the molecules that we see fluorometrically is chlorophyll, which itself is a pigment. Many of our customers find tracking chlorophyll as a process indicator can be very useful. We have had the ability to look at in process hydrocarbon extraction both Pre-CRC and Post CRC which can give interesting and meaningful information - We look forward to innovation from other companies in that space looking to go deeper.

While many complex molecules can fluoresce at the same wavelength, in a specific use case that may not matter. Let’s say if cow dung fluoresces at the same wavelength as D9: that would mean that you couldn’t tell them apart. However, if you are working at the point of purification where someone might use Arometrix technology to understand potency trends, I hope we are passed making sure cow dung is removed from your product :wink: In its current form, the Fraction finder can’t differentiate CBD and THC because of how similar the fluorescent response is based on field experience and on the chemical standards we purchased from a supply house. This may make it less useful for Chromatography, or require a more creative SOP to use molecular monitoring for that process. Some of our customers have figured that out. And to be clear, we have done very little work with isolated compounds, so we can’t really speak to the tech’s usefulness there.

In a post not too long ago, one of our early adopters in the ethanol space did a bunch of tests and posted about how his extraction finder didn’t see anything. After his post, we worked with him and discovered his 2 year old first generation extraction adapter developed an issue and in fact, was broken - it didn’t see anything. In the last week the issue has been resolved, and I am sure his new system will perform as designed. If you have an Fraction Finder or an Extraction Finder that isn’t giving you what you want, please contact us. Or you can post here and we can contact you after your post. There are some subtleties that make the technology work a bunch better, and sometimes things break. We can help in both situations. In most cases we can help companies get started and optimize their results from fluorescence.

I think we can do a lot more with lemonade than with lemons. I think building each other up and working together to scientifically address issues can get the community a lot further in growing this industry to achieve our mutual goal of helping more patients. If we as a group cry foul in pursuit of self promotion or otherwise, then we lose the power of each other. I feel this forum, when used in the information sharing way Dustin intended, is hugely beneficial. I know we would be nowhere without our customers guiding us to improve and be better, and a lot of those conversations happen on this forum, and for all that communication we are grateful.

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It’s absolutely NOT, if the data consists of looking at a vial sitting in the detector.

Unless you want to quantify the noise…

Which can probably be lowered using the provided blackout tape.

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Thank you for joining the conversation here,

The major issue here is that you are NOT listening to customer feedback. I told you this was an issue two years ago and you didn’t want to acknowledge it.

What exactly would it take to prove to you that CBD and THC in the field are not fluorescing?

What I want is confirmation that if the fraction finder does not detect cannabinoids, I will be offered a refund. I was sold one with the promise of that functionality and you’ve doubled down on that in this post. Is a refund something that you can offer?

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I’m drinking the Arometrix cool-aid, or lemonade as the case may be.

I appreciate this post so much. Thank you for continuing to lean in to this platform and for all you do for the industry.

Thanks, @arometrix ! I’m a fan and at your service.

Alex, I’m sure if a refund would make you happy, they’d be happy to do it. But you don’t want a refund. Not really.

You have a product and I’m looking forward to learning more about it this week in San Diego.

Early in my marketing days, I could not get my competitor’s names out of my mouth. In fact, the first correspondence Max from Across International and I had was when he sent me a cease and desist letter. I’m not proud of that. Any product that’s good enough to sell should be able to stand on it’s own.

I challenge you personally, Alex, to be better than I was. To market your product on its own merits. Satisfy your own customers. Someone else’s customers will find you if they aren’t happy. You don’t need to advocate for them, provide a solution to them.

Take the high road. You’ll never be sorry you did.

These two things seem to contradict each other. On one hand saying you don’t know if cannabinoids fluoresce and it doesn’t matter anyway. And on the other hand saying that you know they fluoresce based on analytical standards. Which is true? And if you have evidence that pure standards are detectable, can you post it here?

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What I want is for @arometrix to stop marketing the fraction finder using lies and half truths. It has created a muddy and confusing situation when the technology could otherwise be used for really good things.

Scientists and companies in our industry are constantly being sold expensive and ineffective instruments. That money could buy other useful things. I’d expect you to empathize more with the labs who wasted money than the company selling the bad tech

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Can you point at as this post or identify the user for us.

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You’re not the boss of that. You are the boss of your own business and you can commit to truth in advertising at the highest level.

I’ve found that when I focus on what I can control, I am a more effective and happier person. I also don’t sound like such a salty bitch all the time.

shots fired

I recall you telling me that I’m an “if you see something say something” kind of person. You used to think it was a good thing. What changed?

Incredibly unprofessional of you by the way.

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You realize there’s like 4 unsatisfied customers posting about this besides him?

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