I spun a side discussion off:
“Butane works but no theory! a few dozen hints”
some of what is there may help…
basically the thinking of the “butane extraction forum”
is fundamentally flawed.
This fact does not solve your “chalk problem”.
What form of THCA does Butane extract?
You all need a short course on weak acids, pK values
pH control of ionization, salt formation and solution dimers
or ion pair complexes…The people you want to explain things seem to be all Ph.D.'s as all this is somewhat
routine for the trained chemist…but admittedly I have
been trying to familarize a limited audience of the details involved.
addendum 4 in the post is the final reference.
the solution form is ionic or an ionic complex
suitable to bind to (or exchange with ) a tertiary amine.
This problem only really presents itself in the extraction
of cannabinoic acids from fresh hemp by the butane process. One must be mindful of such aspects
in the purification and crystallization steps as well. So if you are Diamond mining. one really needs to understand some of these esoteric
aspects of solution chemistry. Hopefully a general awareness will become diffused throughout the community.
Ok so I’m familiar with some of these from AP chem I took in highschool
Still trying to grasp how they relate but I appreciate the continued info.
Weak acids - my understanding is they do not completely give up all H+ to a solution.
pKa is the measurement of acidity. I know there is a correlation between pKa and pH as it relates to ionization. Salts are formed by opposite ionic charges interacting together.
Definition of a dimer is " a compound formed by the union of two radicals or two molecules of a simpler compound specifically : a polymer formed from two molecules of a monomer."
Definition of dimer - Merriam-Webster https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dimer&ved=2ahUKEwiPuIPeyPbzAhXLpZ4KHayaBlEQFnoECCIQBQ&usg=AOvVaw31jeyOv_T9rD0hpkaSb5Cg
Dimers and the correlation of the above info is where I’m lost. Are you suggesting there is thca salts being formed. I would expect thca to be a weak acids. How could an acid exist as anything other than a positive ion. Maybe that’s where I’m losing you? Again my highest level chemistry was as a 17 year old on an online class alone so please try to dumb it down for me.
pH is only applicable in aqueous environments or protic solvents. pKa (pH at which other acids dissociate) similarly describes the ionization state which also requires protic solvents. Substances can be protonated or deprotonated in an aprotic solvent but they aren’t likely to change that state in the absence of H+ or the conjugate base in solution.
disclaimer: not an organic chemist but I played one once or twice
“What form of thca does butane extract” um ok bro, I think your missing the point, people have been using butane and the same methods to make diamonds in mason jars or miners the same way for a long time now. All of a sudden there’s these “chalk” diamonds. So what’s up with that? You got answers to the problem or just like to sound smart?
He’s pretty quick gonna be my second ignore after thumper. He definitely enjoys reading his own… somewhat nonsensical diatribes. So far, the most useful thing he’s offered is that the solvent might be more pure now than before.
I’ll let you be the judge of that… “suggestion”. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a troll with an o chem textbook.
Swet:
when it comes to diamonds, mason jars and chalk…
the concept of:
“the waning abyss of ignorance and speculation” comes to mind.
I really can’t help you out…
but if you read all articles I reference in
“butane works but no theory”
and fully understand addendums 1-4…
you will come to realize that butane extractors
thoughout the world really have no idea what the fuck they
are doing.
Then you can begin to speculate on what a diamond is and what chalk is…
other than that…yes, butane works…
and yes it is unfortunate that only the chemists know what I am talking about…but soon or later the info will trickle down.
the first step is “I don’t know.” That I got in spades.
then there’s reading. unfortunately it’s chemistry. which means there is so much damn background that must have gelled appropriately before you can make heads or tails out of what you’re reading. AND you’ve probably got to actually test much of that “background” in real world situations (just like everything else) to know that you (mostly) know what you’re claiming to have a handle on. my minor in chemistry was more than 30 years ago.
I’m certainly of the opinion that those solvent filled balloons the plant is holding up are “special” as far as having an environment that is both conducive to enzymatic synthesis (traditionally thought of as requiring an aqueous enviromenet) and accumulation of cannabinoids (piss poor solubility in an aqueous environment without taking it a fair ways from traditional enzymatic optima).
The answer is very simple… You’re buying gas from people that don’t care about fractionating it to the degree that we need it. But anyway and I digress
So when THCA (either form) loosed it’s acidic proton (H+) to the solution it will be an anion with a negative charge THCA(-). Then if we have some cations like Na+ or Ca++ they will form a salt with the THCA(-) anion. We might have some of this going on and forming the chalk like stones. Chalk is a salt of Ca++ and CO3(2-). @moronnabis please correct me if I’m wrong. It is possible that this is going on but I would think that would involve high pH or basic conditions and there would have to be some cations to form the salt as well. Not sure how butane would extract those or how that works out in a non-aqueous solution. I have never taken a pH reading of any extract (or any non-aqueous solution) but it would be interesting to see where we are during the crystallization process.
The dimer would be that 2 THCA(–) anions could dimerize with a calcium ion Ca++ in the crystal structure.
My questions are how do we find out? and how do we prevent it? Fixing it would be simple enough just do an acid wash but that defeats the point of one run diamonds. Also if it is a problem of pH why doesn’t it happen when recrystallizing with pentane?
pH is generally thought of in aqueous solutions because water can and does take place in the reaction of an acid and a base in those solutions. In a non-aqueous solution it is more difficult to predict since the solvent will not react with the acid and base in the same way as we are used to. But to answer the question yes a cation needs to be involved for a salt to form. A salt is defined as the product of an acid and a base reacting with one another or neutralizing each other. Personally I have no experience with pH in non-aqueous solutions but I am looking into it now.
pKa is the negative log of the Ka which tells us the ratio of the products of the ions formed from the reaction divided by the products of the reactants before the reaction. pH however is the negative log of the concentration of H+ ions in solution. So you cannot very easily measure pKa or Ka but can measure pH quite easily in aqueous solutions. The answer is yes there would be a different pH of the chalked crystals if they were the product of neutralization and were in fact ionic dimers. That could be a good test.
No, but plenty of people mix with water and attempt to take a reading. I don’t find that method reliable enough to report, but we’ve tried it on occasion internally. The washes being performed are removing the acids and bases. The colors are (edit: usually) due to oxidation products.
