I know you said that you were looking to get products to test from stores and such, but I’d be happy to send a sample of some d8 I made and distilled last night. It is some of the cleanest stuff I have made to date, and I’m looking to get a “real” COA on it instead of the usual suspects. Please let me know as I am very curious as to see what kind of quality we made. After reading all of your work in the d8 thread as well as your work with THCP product testing, it’s clear that you know your stuff!
P.s. our stuff is better than Snapdragons because we are just a hair north of them, same state though!
We don’t do this. The reason is many of the D8 distilate COAs are from a bad facility who put their cheating sample through extensive chromatography and distillation to ensure a clean test. Only a few grams.
D8 made properly is expensive. Irregardless of how it is made: olivetol & terpene, CBD and a Lewis Acid with or without solvents produce toxic byproducts and generally enough D9 to fail a real test.
We’ve tested now 30 brands. Of that:
None pass D9 test.
Few pass Olivetol test (at least some short path cleanup)
Most fail toxic byproducts (crude to cart with poor lab practices)
A few fail simple solvent tests (kitchen sink meth labs by night, D8 by day)
The only reason we haven’t posted the latest list was so that regulators we’ve submitted analysis to (the worst offenders) can purchase samples of their own and shut these bad operations down.
I would be happy to test your product in a store setting and likely I will at some point.
We ONLY tested this THCP because:
I believed no one would risk the equipment, money, and dangerous synthesis to make it in production volumes. It’s beyond the scope of most labs. There are easier ways to make $$$.
I’ve only found fake THCP, usually toxic.
We have had some impact. Many sites and “labs” with fake THCP have removed the product from their sites and store shelves.
I hope to post the first set of “super bad” D8 brands with analysis soon once I get some indication other interested parties have been able to acquire samples so they can clean up this party. It’s sad to have to go this route. For the less toxic ones, we will post the results here and wait and see if they are recalled and voided.
I’m happy to hear you believe you made clean D8. How much extensive work did you perform on the final product?
Friedel-Crafts reactions result in 4-alkylresorcinols. The only way to favor 5-alkylresorcinol is to conduct the experiment in gas phase and it only works for short alkyl like ethane, methane, in a high temperature (300C), and high pressure heated column. It requires high temperature, high pressure to keep dealkylation from occurring.
Hence the need for Wittig and a multi-pot synthesis with some challenging catalysts and pressure hydrogenation (balloons won’t do it). This eliminates most production facilities and labs without experienced PhDs around. Over 50% of our facility is PhDs and we do various synthesis like this but we have years of experience building a facility with the equipment to accomplish this level of synthesis at a production scale - this would challenge us as there are some exothermic issues that will no doubt likely appear as the reactions are scaled.
I would assume this statement not to be correct, in fact there are multiple publications out there for this exact class of substrates that demonstrate excellent hydrogenation yields under non-pressurized H2 atmosphere. Transfer hydrogenation surely works as well.
It depends on the Lewis acid they use and what their lab practices are like. In many cases hundreds of these compounds exist. They usually include:
trimethyl benzenes
triethyl benzenes
dimethyl benzenes, and many many others
cyclohexenes (many types)
cyclohexanones
triethyl borate
phthalates (many types including ethyl, diethyl, methyl, dimethyl) seems to depend on the amount of p-Cresol they produce and how much air gets in the process.
I’m not naming specifics because there are generally 30 or so benzenes, 20 or more hexenes, and a few phthalates. There are of course many others we don’t have the time to resolve many of them. We eliminate the known terpenes first.
We will reduce this list to specific ones but there are so many variants in each sample. This generally accounts for 1-2%. can be higher if the reaction is allowed to progress longer with air and heat.
The Olivetol, p_Cymene, and p-Cresol are more substantial. We analyzed a cart yesterday that had over 9% of the above compounds.
We are finding many of the corner store type D8 carts contain a crude D8 mixture with terpenes. This puts D8s in obvious catagories:
crude
shortpath
chromatography
As for the structures, I have to upload pictures we drew of the structures based on the spectra.
Olivetol is more of a lung irritant. Unfortunately, it’s quite high in these samples so that likely accounts for the “harshness” in D8s. OSHA designated it a hazardous substance under 29CFR1910.1200
It’s the least of my concerns in the samples but it’s high level does bring some level of concern.
It’s the least of the hazardous byproducts we are finding in D8 carts but due to its concentration I’m concerned about its long-term effects. I’m more concerned about vaping PAHs and phthalates.
It’s one thing to live near a toxic dump, it’s another thing to vape one.
Just about every drug people put in their bursts, for fun or medicine, is an acid.
Cocaine hydrochloride
MDMA hydrochloride
345trimethoxyphethylamine hydrochloride
Freebase molecules can be caustic, etc…
And it takes an acid to make it soluble in polar compounds…
Smoked products like semesters and crack are alkaline/basic.
Yeah that is more what I would have anticipated. If it’s making up a big chunk of the composition I could see it being irritating. The concentration would determine the toxicity there more than a lot of these other things that are just blatantly toxic/carcinogenic/acidic. I was more confused if it was being on the same pedestal as the chemical soup of benzene derivatives and plasticizers that you posted initially. So thank you for clarifying.
I think the problem with trying to specify the bad chemicals in these distillates is that it’s more just a combination of dozens (if not hundreds) of synthetic derivatives. If you Google a majority of the chemicals you identified you pretty much will not find a single account of them occurring outside of oil refineries. Strictly synthetic, man-made, nasty chemical byproducts that were never supposed to be introduced into our bodies.
I’ve seen a handful of anecdotal reports from people fucking up their rectal tissue with caustic research chemicals, I’m sure it happens with conventional drugs as well
Just because other people are doing something doesn’t mean we shouldn’t reduce the harm where we can
If the drug reaches your stomach, the acidity is not an issue. But if it tends to resides in between, then it can cause troubles, especially to bones and teeth… acidic vapors are not good for lungs neither.
The byproducts of semi-synthesis of D8 are predictable and known (at least in our lab). They are easily removed with distillation and chromatography. The D8 should be isolated with chromatography or distilled in a CO2 set up with a Lewis acid. Most ingredients made in harsh chemical processes yield numerous byproducts that must be removed. We deal with that everyday and the consumer never experiences the byproducts.
The numerous byproducts increase in D8 as heat is increased and Lewis acids are changed without any understanding as to what the byproducts are, in addition to using solvents that are industrial grade or hardware store stuff with all sorts of contaminates. Add air to it and you have all sorts of oxidation, thermal decomposition and numerous new toxic byproducts.
I’ve heard from a few producers that making D8 without N2 or Argon yields them only 4% less D8 so no big deal. I advised them that all the reagents are reacting so what do they think that 4% became? Some don’t seem to care - just make D8 fastest way with minimum equipment and expertise. More money.
Now, many are doing this in barns and garages with little or no chemical experience.
It’s amazing how we spent the last 50 years to legalize something a few are now destroying. I’m hopeful our work and outreach changes this. Due to greed, it’ll likely take a few raids and some public embarrassment. Hopefully this preserves self-regulation.
It’s no different than inviting someone over for dinner and adding 4% gasoline/diesel mix to their food while cooking. No one would eat that yet these bad manufactures do this everyday without regard for others.
Agreed. Many compounds are made with some level of harsh chemistry using organometallics, amalgams, halides, transition metal catalysts at some point. Most of the harshest chemistry is done by specialty chemical plants or in China. The consumer never encounters the toxic reagents or byproducts that MUST be utilized to make what they are using or enjoying. Responsible facilities have conducted extensive analysis on the byproducts and removed them.
