What qualities make RSO "good"

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flavonoids and other compounds we don’t test for like that definitely make a difference it’s just hard to tell how. decarbed rosin is even better than RSO but most people dont want to pay the extra $$

@GroovyOctopusLabs yea that’s the original method rick simpson posted videos about, still the easiest for sure and very effective.

@CannabinoidChemist if you want to be technical about it yea it’s not actually winterization it’s just vacuum filtration but the object is not to filter out as much waxes as possible. there usually is some shit that gets burnt on the inside of the jar but it’s really not a big deal. just reclaim the jars when you save up a few and filter the crap out

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Is there any data to back that up? Jw.

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just personal experience bro i don’t have any research to site. give it a try! you’ll see what i mean, shit is potent af and an amazing pain killer if it was made from a indica strain. My guess is that etoh can’t extract every compound thats in rosin i just don’t know what

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yea bho definitely has waxes at room temp when you dissolve in etoh and so does rso unless you did a cold initial extraction

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eatt it faster

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on topic, I dont think rick simpson was picky/ its ethanol oil extract from the whole plant. Thats what makes it good.

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Edit: What is the difference between FECO and RSO? • Cannabis Nation Dispensaries

RSO is naphtha
Feco is heptane, co2 or etoh

Originally rso was naphtha

By now though no one in their right mind would use naphtha for edible cannabis oil which is why a lot of dispensaries market etoh or c02 made FECO as RSO because of the non-volatility

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Any one experimenting with making RSO FECO using fresh frozen cannabis with room temp ethanol???

All statements are referring to sublingual or topical application not for vaping or smoking, medical RSO FECO only.

The winterized or subzero extracted oil seem much less medically effective from first person experience and other antidotal statements that are often circulating around. The explanation for the superior medical benefits of the unrefined oil is attributed to lipids fats flavonoids and chlorophyl.
because these other compounds are regarded as having medical value I would like to extract at room temp.

“Fresh Frozen room temp ETO”

I understand that it will take much more ethanol to wash the fresh frozen flowers as opposed to using dry cannabis due to the fact that when cannabis is wet the volume is at least 4 or 8 times as large. Another major obstacle is that the ethanol will become diluted with water much faster from the fresh frozen material. The extra water retention will also slow down my room temp fan evaporation. was considering using a vacuum chamber with no heat or possibly a Rotovap.

In the past I have used about half wet and half dry. Thinking of Processing some separately and taking it to a lab to get some actual data on terpene content difference between the two. logic tells me that fresh frozen batch should have significantly more terpenes. the question is all the extra effort worth the reward. It is utterly amazing the lack of data that is available on the medical oil side of cannabis compared to the rapid development of the recreational marijuana concentrate market.

All other concentrates are regarded as higher quality when using fresh frozen marijuana seems logical that this would apply to RSO.

finally I also evaporate ethanol using no heat, simple open container and fan. however this is becoming trouble some with larger batches becoming a fire hazard occupying a room for a month or possibly longer.

I think there are many improvements that can be made to the much neglected low tech medical oils.

room temp EtOH extraction using fresh frozen for RSO ???

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strong textve purchase the fancy winterized or subzero extracted RSO FECO from the dispensaries and it seems inferior to the non winterized version.

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winterized is definitely inferior according to our customers. i never winterize. if it needs winterization because its too high waxes/lipids it just goes to dist

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I think the same thing but I’m met with a lot of resistance on f42k :man_shrugging:

I’ve had over 9% terps in my rso before, definitely depends on how you decarb but I’m actually going to try undecarbed rso for cancer because some people in other threads recommend it. you’ll definitely keep way more terps if you don’t decarb

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Probably not, as the water content of fresh frozen will drop the proof and encourage the pulling of water soluble compounds right along with the water. Also, you are talking about putting warm ethanol on frozen biomass, and this negates any benefit from freezing the fresh flower.

You are also incorrect in that more ethanol will be required. You are trying to reach the point of critical saturation in your tincture (when extracting efficiently), and the volume of cannabinoids is not changing, only the weight of the biomass. Potency based on weight looks different when you have a ton of water making up that weight.

If keeping terps is something you are really concerned with, then sitting the tincture open to atmosphere for solvent evap (recovery) for a month or longer is costing you dearly. I would suggest trying an alternative to see if that process can be expedited. You should notice better terp retention, as well.

Edit: Oh yeah, and welcome to the community! Please don’t take my criticism personally. You present a good question, and I’m happy to discuss it more with you.

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it’s been mentioned a few times that like 10-20% water content in your etoh actually improved extraction and it would help in making a more full spectrum medicine by extracting more water solubles. i actually mix 190 proof etoh with like 5-10% heptane so that it extracts a wider range of compounds.

water codistills with etoh so you wont have a bunch of water in your extract

and yea i agree letting it evap at room temp is probably causing a huge terp loss

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I’m very aware of why 190 is better than 200 proof. My preference to to extract with 190 proof, organic ethanol because of its selectivity at my preferred extraction temp (-67C or colder). If you are adding heptane, why not just get some CDA12-A (heptane denatured ethanol)? That’s exactly what you are making. It would cost you a lot less than making it yourself!

I would argue that every time one extracts fresh frozen with ethanol (denatured or not) the proof drops. The proof drops enough and extraction efficiency is greatly diminished. The water codistilling only reinforces this idea. Heptane makes it so that proof cannot easily be judged (proofing bulb), so tracking numbers becomes vital to ensuring an operation stay efficient. Reproofing can also not be done via distillation with heptane denatured. Other means must be utilized.

I ran a medical program for a few years, and my extracts produced with organic 190 (extracted at -20C to -40C) showed incredible efficacy and retained plenty of terps. I do believe that there is greater potential benefit from the additional compounds present in the oleoresin when extracting warm, but I have also seen more polished crude have similar, if not the same, effects.

Much of the efficacy, in my experience, is related to the specific strains being extracted. Certain strains provide greater therapeutic relief for different ailments. Try giving someone with sleep problems an extract with THC-V amd see how well it works. It won’t. It isn’t that the extract isn’t effective medicine; it’s that the medicine is not well attuned to the problem at hand.

Combining the extract of various strains to achieve desired effects is something I am rather fond of and have seen great success around, as well. Cannabis is such a dynamic plant and matching the correct genetic expression with the correct ailment is where we re-engage the ancient art of alchemy.

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i buy heptane denatured etoh then top it off with 190 proof etoh and add a small bit of heptane from water washes as needed then when it gets too high of a water content i just use that for chilling solvent for other extraction systems

definitely agree with you on the extraction efficiency decreasing if you use the solvent for fresh frozen, i never etoh extract with fresh frozen that all goes to bho. I never need to reproof but I’m not a huge lab so it’s just not necessary at this point in time.

Couldn’t agree more on strain selection being very important. Matching strains to the product you’re producing is definitely necessary, i add live resin terps, cbg, and cbd that i made myself to my rso so it’s as full spectrum as possible and I’m working on finding other plant extracts to combine too. Alchemy is definitely an art that I’ll never know everything about there’s billions of combinations of meds that each do something different and each person reacts to those meds differently. I love my job lol

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I will not be decarbing as well. I have already witnessed it cure overian cancer once using this method no heat room temp evaporation. I have here’d the term natural decarb. I am hesitant to apply heat.

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Thanks for the info would you recommend using a rotovap for evaporation of ethanol. as apposed to open air evaporation.

I hear rotovaps can louse many cannabinoids as well however I’m thinking of purchasing one and testing the results. There would be some definite benefits.

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Making RSO FECO for medical tretment not smoking

Baste off of your combine experience knowledge how many times can I wash cannabis in the same gallon of ethanol at (ROOM TEMP) I hear 1 lb to 1 gallon. they are often referring to subzero alcohol temps. Because of the warmer temp I will be using, I think I can reuse it several times What are your thoughts?

Room temp alcohol, dry flowers ratio?..

4? Lb flower to 1 gallon alcohol total. conducted in 1lb successive washes toping off with clean alcohol to bring level back to one gallon each wash.

Room temp alcohol Fresh Frozen flowers ratio?..

I think the alcohol will become saturated a lot faster due to the extra water content of fresh frozen. how many lb of fresh frozen can I run through each gallon? what are your thoughts?

Doing test runs today looks like the fresh frozen flowers dropped the temp of the alcohol way down inhibiting the extraction process dramatically. Almost no green was extracted from the plant material I let it sit for 15 minuets until alcohol reached room temp and drew out or extracted some Ecto Cooler green pigments. I was only planing to let the fresh frozen material sit for 3 minis but plans changed when after 3 minutes almost no color whatsoever was extracted from the plant material. Material was agitated during ectraction to aide in extraction hole chunks felt like they needed some braking up. Seems like huge volumes of material can be smashed in to tinny amount of alcohol. 4 heping cups of dry material can be smashed in to one cup of ethanol. Wet material would condense down only half as much.

The dry flowers where only washed for 3 minutes this seemed adequate. a rich green was achieved in this time.

the smell of the two different batches was different.

Fresh frozen room temp alcohol batch smell like candy. plant mater was significantly left more intact

Dry flowers alcohol batch smells sweet with a hind of roast coffee. plant mater almost disintegrated in to a fine powder.

thinking of taking some batches to the lab to see if I can identify a good number of washes for each unit of alcohol. The alcohol is expensive. Don’t want to leave cannabinoids behind.
I feel like with room temp I can get more runs for each gallon. any one have any advice input?

Purchase a Digital alcohol meeter for $1500? test for 17% saturation saturation?
take waste material samples to the lab?
Low tech approach add water to ethanol see if white precipitation forms in sample to determine when you have reached saturation?

Always do a second wash to catch remaking 20% of cannabinoids?

What do you all think any advice?

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How does one lose cananaboids from ethanol recovery in a rotovap? Ethanol evaps at a much lower temp than a cananaboids. Terpenes can and will come over with the evaporated etoh.

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I hear terpenes may be lost from heat, vacuum presser and thin film on the heted glass rotating bulb and that the oder of the evaporated terpenes can be smelt coming out of the vacuum pump exhaust.
Ethanol and other liquids evaporate at lower temps under vacuum as do plant compound. I understand that Rotovaps are likely the gentlest and most practical fastest method of ethanol evaporation. I intend to test their results and possibly purchasing one.

They are also expensive for people making meds at home on a smaller scale.

When evaporating at room temp with a fan only the surface is exposed to oxidizing oxogen.

What if lower tech methods of evaporation can produce superior products for small scale home use. This would be highly valuable information for the general public.

We assume that complicated specialized equipment is alway superior and if it is it should most defiantly be used. However the beauty of RSO and FECO is that it can be produced with simple low tech methods and can be a vary high quality medicine.

Should medical patients be purchasing RSO FECO from local dispensers that that is made from trim and completely decarboxylated, should they perches a rotovap and make their own meds? Should we leave it to the experts with their high tech labs or should we help develop simple methods and techniques that are available to the general public? Do we make small producers feel inferrer or that they are incapable of producing equal quality meds without 10K plus in equipment. These are big questions there are not straight forward simple answers.

 Maybe a Rotovap  is best.

 Maybe a hot plate magnetic stirrer with a Water Aspirator or chemical grade diagram pump is best.

 Hopefully a fan in an open container is the best because it is the simplest and lowest cost.

Any thoughts, insight on the ratio of room temp ethanol to fresh frozen flower?

Any thought, insight on room temp ethanol to dry flower ratio?

Should I stick with the standard 1 to 1 ratio or can I stretch the ethanol further because of the room temp extraction.