Glycerine/fatty acid esters are what you guys want to be looking at (not glycerine on its own). Less oily, lighter, better shelf life, flavorless, any viscosity you want, and the absorption rates are much faster (or slower, if that’s what you’re after). You have the stability of an oil with the absorption of water solubles. Look at carrier oils for pharmaceuticals and you will quickly be presented with dozens of FDA approved options that all have their own unique properties.
We are on Future4200 and all everyone comes up with is vegetable glycerine, MCT oil, and ethanol. I thought we were more original than that. I’d say to just PM me but I feel like I’ve already made it pretty easy to find several better delivery methods.
I agree that glycerin is a shitty solvent for cannabinoids however this application doesn’t use glycerin as a solvent. The ethanol is the solvent.
I was looking directly at the manufacturer’s package ingredient list and it listed glycerin and not propylene glycol. It may have been changed since then but both ingredients are common in medications and both have similar properties and can be interchangeable.
PEG 400 is pretty common but I’m pretty sure PEG 2000 is basically a solid or powder. I’ve never seen that one.
Watch out with PEG as it has a lot of different grades and potential allergic responses. USP grade is available for most of the lower MW forms but like I said I’m unfamiliar with the high MW PEGs. Anything intended for industrial uses can have some really nasty impurities so be mindful of the grade you are choosing. Regardless of the grade you just need to be very diligent about QC if you are using it for a consumable product because of how it’s produced. Even USP grade is known to cause severe reactions to it in some people. It’s said to be uncommon in literatyre but if you ever use it you should list it as an allergen warning. PEG was in the news this week because it’s believed to be the reason some are having severe reactions to the vaccine (it’s used as an adjuvant or some type of carrier). So at that scale we may have some new data on how common reactions to PEG carriers really are soon which may help you make a more informed decision.
I personally avoid PEG. It’s considered safe/biologically inert by the FDA but there’s been growing evidence over the years that this may not be entirely accurate. The more it gets studied the more we find people have freak allergies to it. Whether or not those reactions are due to PEG or the impurities is not something I’ve ever explored. It’s made from ethylene oxide/ethylene glycol so inherently it’s just bound to have some toxic impurities. I wouldn’t touch it if you didn’t have intentions to thoroughly test it and ensure you’re getting a safe product. Your supplier may not be doing their due diligence on the grade they’re selling you but if you’re the one putting it in a consumable product then that’s ultimately on you. In minuscule amounts it may not be problematic but I wouldn’t go dosing full ML’s in a tincture regardless of purity.
I do not know enough about PEG’s absorption times to comment on the benefits as a tincture delivery system. I’ve always kind of written it off as a carrier oil knowing how severe reactions can be when they do happen. One of the last companies I worked for one of the owners was very vocal about how no product can ever contain PEG. With tinctures you often need to assume they’re being administered to immunocompromised/elderly medical patients. If it’s for personal use/healthy friends who are aware of it then it may be viable but like I said I’d keep looking. There may be a way to test if you’re allergic to it by applying a droplet to the skin or something. People in the cannabis space have a tendency to gravitate towards PEG because it’s been made familiar by Wax Liquidizer (which raises a lot more concern knowing PEG’s instability at pretty much any elevated temperature range). I swear people in this industry think PG/VG/Glycerine/PEG/MCT are the only options out there.
Edit: I agree with @roiplek on glycerine. I’ve probably vocalized my hate for glycerine on many occasions on this forum. @PSam in what order were the ingredients listed? Glycerine may be the very last thing. Teeny tiny amounts of it are used to improve the consistency of liquids. It’s likely being used as a superficial ingredient to improve mouthfeel. Basically it will help with that filmy feeling that oil-soluble drugs tend to leave on your mouth. In water soluble applications it lends more to a syrupy consistency and can reduce odor/flavor. I’m not personally familiar with the product you’re going off of but if I were to guess it’s being used sparingly for a more cosmetic reason and not for drug absorption.
@stoopkid Thanks for this great response. I need more popcorn. No idea on all this stuff as when I read its more so “PEG is FDA approved”, “PEG increases circulation time” and think huh, I might should try this. So is that your opinion on all PEGylated products too? Still trying to figure out your secret ester for absorption tek. I read a paper last night showing span 20 aids in bioavailability and digestion compared to other common excipients. Its a common one might bit be anything special in your eyes. Never worked with it so going to give that one a try. Big thing I read too is P-gp and CYP3A inhibitor properties are something to watch out for. Looks like the polysorbates do that.
Switching lanes a bit, ever heard of Polyglyceryl-3 Oleate for topicals? I just picked some up and going to experiment bypassing first pass through topical approach. Pretty stoked.
Glycerin is a non-toxic fluid made from plant oils in its natural form. It can also be made synthetically through processing propylene. Chemically speaking, the alcoholic compound is made of three -OH groups. It is a clear, colorless, sweet tasting, syrupy liquid. Glycerin is commonly used as a humectant (meaning it preserves moisture), solvent, and preservative. Glycerin is also an emollient, which means that it has the quality to soothe and soften the skin, which makes this extremely popular for soap making.
Propylene glycol is a synthetic fluid that derives from propylene oxide. Chemically speaking, it is composed of two -OH groups. Like glycerin, it is a clear, colorless, and sweet tasting chemical. It is also most commonly used as a humectant, solvent, and a preservative…
I’m familiar with many oleic acid esters but never handled that one firsthand. One thing you’ll learn is there’s an endless list of specialized emollients and emulsifiers for the cosmetic industry. Looking at the properties and being familiar with similar ones it will definitely contribute a nice texture. I assume you’re using it in conjunction with some other type of plant wax rather than as the main constituent of your topical.
I only answered half of your question but I have to keep moving today
Not a solvent in this application. More of a diluent/emulsifier for this. As @cyclopath says, it’s process dependent and both have the properties I want. Polyethylene glycol even fits the bill. Personal preference and I prefer glycerin for this, as simple as that.
Whether there is or ever was glycerin in Sativex is really an non-issue and only matters if you want to argue about it which I don’t. I saw the package ingredients with my own eyes but I’ll concede your point since I can’t find the image I saw. I like to look on the box and only used the first I found. So I’ll go and change my commentaries to read “glycerin/pg”.
Glycerin is used more often in food products and is generally a natural product as opposed to the synthetic, somewhat toxic pg. Read that sancoind.com link in cyclopath’s post.
Sativex does not contain glycerine. It lists ethanol, propylene glycol, and peppermint oil.. Glycerine is a separate thing altogether. Knowing that peppermint oil would be used at extremely low ppm the PG is likely also an additive to serve as a cosolvent to reduce the harshness of pure ethanol. It can improve mouthfeel by way of reducing the filmy texture of the cannabinoids/oil as well as offset the bitterness of the alcohol/mint. You could tell by the consistency just looking at it alongside a bottle of ethanol if they are using a significant amount as it would have a higher viscosity. I’ve never looked at it myself so I cannot comment on the amount used. I just wouldn’t take ingredients lists so literally as so many trace additives can legally be omitted and there seem to be some underlying misunderstandings here.
One thing to note is neither PG or glycerine (if it were used) would be acting as an emulsifier in this context. PEG can be and is totally different than glycerin and PG. So it’s also unusual to refer to PEG like they’re interchangeable with the former as those things possess drastically different chemical properties. When you see glycerine or PG used in this context it’s generally just a small amount for texture purposes, not as a surfactant or anything to that effect. It wouldn’t be incorporated for oil soluble drug uptake unless other chemicals were involved such as in an OW emulsion but that would be a very different formulation.
It’s very possible the ingredients list omits emulsifiers but I see some problems with that based on the order of ingredients. Withholding emulsion IP is pretty much the norm in the states although I do not know firsthand if it needs to be disclosed in these documents. What’s more likely to me is the PG is just a fluff ingredient to make it slightly more pleasant to consume the ethanol, oily cannabinoids and mint oil. If they were utilizing a full emulsion system then you’d typically see water or an equivalent in the ingredients before the oils if it were an OW. Regardless, I don’t think this is a good path to try and develop a product given the way very different things are being discussed interchangeably.
Sorry, but there’s nothing here. I set out to make something for home use similar to Sativex only because it was there and it worked and the US was dragging it’s feet. It’s not meant to be anything other than an easy way to dose for those who have trouble swallowing or inhaling or other issues that can get in the way of effective cannabis treatment. Nothing scientific. Green Dragon tinctures burn like the dickens and as mentioned, glycerin tinctures are weak.
I don’t care what anyone here thinks, I created this simple product to help my readers fight their illnesses when all they have is what they can grow at home or afford from the dispensary. Mothers, fathers, grandparents, even children benefit from my knockoffs.
Here, why don’t you see what it is and quit making it what it’s not. It’s been extremely effective. It’s open source, me to you, so if you can do better for your patients…do it. And the packaging I saw said “glycerin” but no big deal. The video here ain’t pretty and I’m told I talk too much but the commentary associated with it will give you a clue. Try it. It works.
In the US, to my knowledge, food and drug packaging needs to list all ingredients both active and inactive. Doesn’t have to be specific. It could be “natural spices” but you at least know that there’s spices. Same here. That’s as scientific as it gets. If I were making a product for market then of course quality control would be a big deal but I’m not so it’s not.
Nope. I had the image for a few years. It’s a non-starter here, anyway. Sativex was what I was using as a model for easier sublingual/buccal administration where my choice of filler is glycerin instead of pg. Never mind the Sativex reference which is only illustrative of product function and concentrate on that function instead.
I don’t know why everyone is so hung up on the product I’ve chosen, glycerin, and it’s cousin, propylene glycol for this particular purpose. I prefer the natural compound over the industrial one for health reasons. I’m not a noob and know what I’m doing and have my reasons for doing them. No matter what anyone says, this is a great medical application that can be done in the kitchen in minutes and have the potency to do some good. Besides, the rest of the formula is correct.
Seems like everyone would have more constructive things to do than debate “did he really see ‘glycerin’ during research over years or is he an idiot?”. Doesn’t really matter one way or the other to me. It’s all good, though. A little criticism never hurts, warranted or not, and makes me stronger.
