T5, T41, and Crystal Resistance

Thc can be deprotenated or protenated. Many substances can be which is my point.

If you take some thc and run it across a magsil column it will deprotenate the thc even though theres no water present

When you dissolve your thc in 190 proof alcohol the thc will then deprotenate the water, altering ph

If this weren’t true why do we need to water wash after magsil chromatography to get a proper PH? We use distilled water as our reference to return the wax to the correct PH. Water has nothing to do with this

If disassociation only happened in a polar solvent magsil wouldnt cause funny colored wax.

Also, does that mean that MgO only works in ethanol to reduce decarb temp?

I dont think so

I don’t think so on that last part, either!

I hear what you are saying about protonation and deprotonation, and you’re not wrong about that part. That is due to differences in solid phase (considering single molecules to be “solid”) nucleophiles/electrophiles. It is oxidation/reduction. It is reaction. It is not inverse natural log of hydronium ion concentration (pH).

Ethanol is what I call a “semi-polar” or “partially polar” solvent. It is actually polar enough to be mildly acidic in water; it donates protons to water molecules, making H3O+ cations. Ethanol in ethanol, this does not occur, because every molecule is the same… since they all have the same nucleophilicity, nobody donates anything. Weak acid does not dissociate much at all in pure ethanol, but it might a little bit, depending on the competing pKa/pKb relationships of the conjugates. Strong acids can dissociate more… Regardless of the fact that these are still just H+ protic cations and zero OH- anions, one could say there is a theoretical pH present. And you are also correct that it cannot be measured.
Using 190 proof ethanol is just using water. It has pH. Whether there is acid, base, salt, cannabinoids, radioactive isotopes, everything or nothing at all in it, but water, it has pH.

I am not arguing whether or not dissolved acids and bases have an effect on washes or other extractive processes. We know they do. It’s just that pH is not the only effect of acids and bases!

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Bingo, my 2 cents, anything and everything we pull into solution could effect pH quantification. Various compounds and environmental variables play into it. It’s a lot of heavy duty “sciencing” happening, the condition of material, moisture content, environmental factors of the material, media used to scrub your material, solvents, affinities/fluctuations, added material, general processing, insert variable here, there, elsewhere.

I am garnering more and more of an appreciation and respect to the people moving this science forward, I hope to be well rounded enough to grasp it as well as displayed here, to have a real 2 cents, as I am curious what the implications of the discoveries made will bring.

Thank you for giving me homework and more rabbit holes to chase down. You gents are a lot to keep up with.

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Do you notice a color difference between the t5 and t41 ?

Has anyone tried using magsil or aluminum oxide to create a stable, crystal resistant CBD distillate?

using magsil or AO how? if you mean to just change the PH level to create a crystal resistant than yeah, people have tried, not sure its the right solution since changing the ph of a finished product will drastically effect the shelf stability.

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I am trying to create crystal resistant by taking mother liquor and then using chromatography to remove THC down to below 0.3. After distillation though my levels are up to ~70%CBD. I added 10% CBG by weight but it still started crashing out after about 2-3 weeks. Was wondering, if I changed the pH if that would help but not sure what it would do to my color as Im trying to get a nice golden color for a vape cart contract. Shelf life would be another concern as your mentioned.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

All <60% cbd will eventually crystallize. The sure way to solve this is by reducing the cbd content to below 60% and add in other cannabinoids to make up the rest.

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I’m trying to learn how the pH of filtration media affects bho. I want stable slabs of dabs. I’m not trying to make diamonds, and I do not want nucleation/sugar/budder. How will low vs high pH media affect my dabs, and what pH do I want the media for un-nucleated slabs?

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Ph of your media has less of an influence on your extract nucleating than the percentage of cannabinoids in the extract.

most important part here is removing ALL your media.
fines will cause nucleation every time.
AKA “CR-Seeds”.

@Juice311 has a nice write up over here on how it was done BEFORE CRC: Oven Tek for stable shatter. Humidity doesn't stand a chance

it’s also been some time since @Waxplug1 noted:

however, that statement seems somewhat at odds with the following…

so you’re probably gonna have to wait for additional data points…or go find them yourself.

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If you’re looking for stable shatter you need a specific amount of terpenes in there from my understanding

“Stable” is a commonly confused term as is “sugar” from what I’ve seen. To clarify those points you highlighted, acidic media will help to make more stable extracts in regards to it being able to refine the extract better than a natural media. That would increase the amount of cannabinoids in there making it more “stable” or “harder” when talking about consistency.

However “stable” to some can also mean its oxidative state and shelf life. The medias remove impurities through cation exchange and this exchange means that if too much media or too acidic of a media is used, it can leave the oil very acidic and cause it oxidize quickly or sugar out. From what I’ve seen, shatter that was ran through perform6000 will oxidize so fast in the oven, you’ll notice it the next day with how much color it takes on. If I was to add neutral alumina150 at the end of my crc, this oxidation will not happen that quick

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Use b80.

Acidic powders will push your slabs to nucleate easier. At least that’s what I’ve noticed

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That and using alumina will help by drying your extract of any water you might have picked up which also leads to a higher viscosity shatter.

High terpene content can also be a problem, so if you’re working with especially terpy material you might consider separating the vast majority of your terpenes ahead of time then you can redissolve and repour the cannabinoid fraction.

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I may need to make this a separate thread, but here goes…

I really appreciate @bird being the necromancer for this thread, and he brings up a most sublime advantage of solid phase chemistry with his question about “BHO and pH”. These applications for media are either not well known or they have largely gone unspoken until now! Here’s what I know:

Running the carboxylic acid forms of cannabinoids* over a solid pH-medium**, regardless of the solvent***, will have an effect on the cannbinoid-acid’s ability to crystallize.****

*which make up the majority of what we extract directly from the Cannabis plant, especially from younger and/or fresher biomass
**any media which have some sort of pH effect when measured in contact with water
***whether the cannabinoid acids are dissolved in a non-polar solvent like butane or dissolved and partially disassociated in a more polar solvent like ethanol
****via the hydrogen bonding (-H-O-H-) mechanism of inter-molecular lattice formation

This is because of that solid-state reaction mechanism I mentioned before, as I was explaining the nuances of pH to Kotk, wherein the acidic solid (e.g. THCa) can be deprotonated by a solid base (e.g. mineral-hydroxide)… which CREATES water! I.e… [H+] + [OH-] —> [H2O]
(I believe this type of solid-state neutralization is what had you so adamantly believing in non-aqueous/non-polar pH, @Kingofthekush420… Right? I admit it can be confusing, and it is almost an argument of semantics, but does this automatic generation of water by the Brönstead acid-base reaction perhaps help “solidify” my point?)

The various media have 3 different means by which they can affect the pH of water. In my work with Carbon Chemistry, I have identified these as Mobile, Immobile & Buffered in the context of media pH values and their relationships with our solvents and solutes. And, yes, for the sake of simplicity we can just say they “have solid-state pH.” :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

  • Mobile = media contains some free acid/alkali that may leach into filtrates.
    This is strictly mechanical mobility, as in “rinsing” acids/bases from the solid surfaces, although the effect may be greater or smaller under different solvents and conditions.
    Water and polarity of the fluid solution (aka: mobile phase or MP) enhance mobility of acids/bases via solvation effects, while, by the same token, a minimum of water hydrating the medium may reduce mechanical mobility of a/b by non-polar mobile phase.
    Mobility of a/b in any MP is directly proportional to temperature & fluid velocity.
    Mobility of a/b in any MP is inversely proportional to molecular weight & fluid viscosity.

  • Immobile = no free acid/alkali, but media may change pH of acidic/alkaline filtrates (may adsorb H+ or OH-)
    This is always the case for chemically inert media, but some of these can have pH-modified surfaces that will attract and even strip opposing labile protons or hydroxyl groups from passing solutes. The most common cases are those of silica and alumina. Silica is mostly inert and pH neutral, although it may be mildly “activated” with strong acid (strong alkali etches/dissolves silica), especially when in forms with high surface area. Alumina, however, is easily, powerfully and cleanly activated with alkali or acid (albeit less commonly, since strong acid etches alumina) . Activated alumina surfaces strongly attract their electrochemical opposites, and can even cleave the H+ or OH- ions from solutes with sufficiently weak conjugates (i.e. stronger acids & bases have weaker conjugate bases & acids, respectively). The activated alumina usually only attracts and holds onto (for statistically longer time) the “weak” acids and bases, due to their stronger conjugates. That said, all of these strengths are juxtaposed with the conjugates’ affinities (relative to their labile ions) for the mobile phase that carries them… So even some “stronger” conjugates may lose their labile groups to the activated alumina surface if they are enveloped in even stronger solvating power.

  • Buffered = ions in media may exchange with those in filtrates (adsorbs cations+ and/or anions-, mainly via water)
    This is the most complex “pH effect” of media, but also the least concerning for those working with Cannabis, since it requires water. This is actually known as “cation exchange capacity” or CEC in clays. The most important things to understand about it are
    A. Its need for water to move ions around… so it works best in alcohol solutions or other wetted circumstances.
    B. Cations are positively charged, so they attract to negative charge surfaces like hydroxyl groups at clay edges.
    C. This is the best way to adsorb heavy metals in cationic form, so utilize the above two points, A. & B.

Here is a formal document I helped Carbon Chemistry put together for our various products, which includes each product’s particle size range, standard pH range, and our lots’ pH averages along with their pH effect values:
MaterialPropertiesQRG (005).pdf (1.0 MB)

The practical upshot of all this is…

  • Mobile pH media is best for changing crystallization effects of acidic (and potentially non-acidic) cannabinoids, but beware that leftover acid or base in your resin can cause unwanted reactions, especially when heated (with or without air present).

  • Immobile pH media is most likely to attract species with opposing solid-phase pH or charge… although it can strip labile protons or hydroxyl ions if they are “loose” enough and the ion’s conjugate dissolution in the mobile solvent is strongly favored, even without the ion (E.g. CBDcarboxylate- ion in ethanol).

  • Buffered pH media can behave like immobile pH media, but it also has the ability to adsorb larger cations or anions, depending on charge… though this is very nearly always mediated by water, and most often refers to cation exchange capacity (negative charge surfaces) in clays.

Finally, here is the most direct way I can explain it, using the Products of Carbon Chemistry, through which I discerned most of these concepts by empirical observation…

Carbon Chemistry’s MagSil-PR® or, with enough solvent strength, Alumicel B, can outright deprotonate the acidic cannabinoids like THCa and CBDa. This removal of the H+ leaves the carbonyl group (COO-) attached to the cannabinoid molecule.
This can:

  • Inhibit crystallization of THCa (by eliminating the carbonyl OH group)
  • Enhance crystallization of CBDa (by limiting lattice-forming to the alcohol hydroxyl pairs)

Carbon Chemistry’s granular Activated Alumina, while certainly alkaline, given the same temperature and rate of fluid flow, will do more attracting than stripping of acids.

The same goes for the Molecular Sieves, except they also exclude species by size, and they are buffered negative, so cation adsorption tends to be strong with them, assuming the cation fits!

Carbon chemistry’s bentonite clays like Pure-Flo® B80 can adsorb cations when moisture is present in alkanes… T-5® has the best heavy metal cation capacity, especially for typically hydrated alcohol:resin solutions.
Carbon chemistry’s attapulgite clay products, the granular ZeoClear™ Y, and ZeoClear™ L are also effective adsorbers of heavy metals in solutions with a little moisture in alkanes.

Last but not least, anything buffered or immobile can have its surface charge changed by adsorption of oppositely charged species. Buffered media most often just neutralize (and can dissolve) in strong A/B, while immobile pH media flip in pH. Remember that when it comes to contact with your cannabinoids and their acids!

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Hey I’m wondering if your able to help me out a bit. Thanks

Welcome to the future @Bextractor!

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it would be considerably easier if you actually stated what you need help WITH…

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