I’ve been trying to diy emulsions for oral delivery. I’m not a biochemist and have had very unsucessful time trying to make lipisomal solid nano particles. I’ve read read read and all I make is milk that tastes baf with my ratios, mag stirrer, and amazon rotor and stator homogenizer that qma recommended so I’m throwing in the towel asking for help.
I’ve messed around with polysorbate 80, sunflower lecithin, pure PC, Bile salts, Oleic Acid, Sucrose esters, mono and di glyceride flakes, and glycol monostearate trying to balance out HLB for my MCT oil with an HLB required of ~11. It seems to never work out.
Does anyone have any special surfactants that are recommended for at home stuff that I’m missing out on? Or any tips just in general? I think I’ve tapped out what I read on the forum. I feel so close yet so far away… I guess I’m looking for something that make low energy nanoemulsions possible.
Are you trying to make a ready-to-drink beverage or just a super fast absorbing tincture? If it needs to go into a large volume of water after it’s a much different process than if you’re just trying to make an o/w tincture/spray.
Just an o/w tincture with fast as possible absorption. I always just did a simple mix of my cannabinoid isolate with Nature’s Way MCT oil on hot plate for 30 mins. Works well but uptake is forever. Been spending past three weeks try to find a solution.
Edit: I also usually throw in Betroit’s terps. I like the flavor it brings out.
Thanks for your reply. I’ve heard and read about Q and was thinking of trying that. I think I’ve shy’d away from it due to some of the posts I’ve read about how it tastes awful and also trying to do more with less surfactant. If I recall correctly, Q is for microemulsion that requires large ratio of surfactant to other ingredients. It’s not a bad tradeoff given your going to probably make something that works, I’m just thinking there might be a better way. Thanks.
R/S 20000 RPM homogenizer
Hot plate and mag stirrer
Ultra sonic jewlery cleaner inspired by the lipisomal vitamin c lady.
Typical oil carrier of choice is MCT or soybean LCT.
Mostly been just trying to match HLB of oil (e.g. mono and diglyceride with say sucrose ester monopalmitate) by blending right ratios then adding and stirring til something magical happens I guess.
Also did one experiment last night based on a patent I read where I took 40ml water and put 0.6g of pure PC phospho into the water, stirred for 2-3 hours then mixed with 7g soybean oil and 3g CBD. Then added 0.5g of bile salts. Homogenized for 3 minutes in my R/S 20000RPM then baked in my ultra sonic cleaner for 6 minutes (per liposomal vitamin c lady tutorial - seemed like some members had success with that method). Here’s what I got after two hourse settling:
Really thought bile salts would be the smoking bullet. Shows how ignorant I really am.
Other than that method that showed preferably high oil loading (like the bil salt patent), all other attempts have jist been with MCT and LCT alone at roughly 5-10% oil w/w in attempt to save me from blowing through my CBD stash.
So I hate to break it to you but all surfactants applicable here taste pretty horrendous. Half the puzzle is masking the surfactant system without disrupting the emulsion.
Does it matter how diluted you make it? As in, does it need to be a 30ML bottle or can you “water it down” more (in this case literally) and just use a larger volume of liquid to get the intended dose. Reason I ask is the more you can dilute the easier it will obviously be.
Do you need to to be water-clear? Obviously this is preferred but if a slight bit of cloudiness is non problematic then that also options up your options more. Someone selling CBD infused water bottles obviously needs their product to be crystal clear. If you are just doing tinctures in an amber Boston round bottle then it doesn’t matter if you have that slight bluish cloudy appearance that is common for imperfect emulsions. Technically you don’t want this to happen but if it’s a matter of most of your cannabinoid being soluble in the water and less added chemicals (or less equipment requirements) then that’s worth considering. It’s best to be realistic with what you need at first then work out the cosmetic aspects later.
I’ve been wanting to make cannabinoid Nano-disks, but considering they are not approved like other surfactants and require the right materials only obtainable in a lab. I have considered bringing it up to my Pi but it’s sorta edgy and outside of the labs research. My thesis project was based around Nanodisks. Protein-lipid-drug nano particles comprised of a recombinant human lipoprotein. Anyways doing some research I noticed other lipoproteins in plants, and bacteria, which might make them more suitable.
I usually take a 25mg 0.5ml CBD dose when I have my migranes and before bed. For me, unfortunately if I eat or drink anything before bed I sweat like I’m in a sauna. So high loading would be preferable.
For color, doesn’t matter too much to me. Clear would be cool but youre right, I literally put my usual stuff in Boston round amber bottles.
Are there any main differences between surfactants used for clear vs non-clear?
You don’t need any “special” surfactant. I just about see my recipe in your suggestions.
You will never be able to make nano particles with that homogenizer you will be able to homogenize the emulsion together. Which most on the market are predominately a mix of coconut oil, polysorbate, and a specific fraction/grade of sunflower lecithin(finding the right mix is a bitch in its own and that doesn’t include homogenizing them.) You need that high sheer homogenizer to mix 2 of the ingredients together and than you homogenize the 3rd to make the emulsifier.
How you mix the emulsifier is its own recipe in its own before SONICATION, and depending on what you mean low energy nanoemulsions - sonicator and a chiller will use 2500 watts.
As for your reply on Q-naturale almost every emulsifier released on the market is a 5:1 mixture. It says its a oil with a surfactant that has 1year life shelf stability. Aka coconut oil, polysorbate 80, and lecithin.
I sell the actual recipe and sop if you are looking to produce it instead of buying it at $1-2 a gram.
This is true, surfactants taste not so good, the key is of course using less of them.
To make your beverage taste better you will need to use bitter blockers/ sweeteners to improve the taste, as well as use distillate/ isolate that is very neutral in smell (all concentrates are not made the same).I think really the big takeaway from this is using less of the active ingredient= less of the oils and surfactant . This one simple step while not the most desirable in terms of potency will go a long way in making the beverage taste better/ more stable long term.
Hi,
looks like it creamed out.
Try this procedure:
mix cannabinoids+ carrier oil+ surfactant
homogenize them together
Then take this solution and add it to the beverage base while homogenizing the whole time.
This will have better results than throwing the whole kitten caboodle in there and just going for it.
Thank you for this. Itching to read. And I’ll give that a shot. Do you have any tips on determining ratios? Being an engineer, my mind floats towards there being determinstic solutions based off of chemical and molecular properties. eg molar mass, carbon chain length, etc… but again, I’m ignorant.
This all depends on a few factors, solution ph, globule size, storage temp, total amount of emulsified ingredients, and type of cannabinoid. I have noticed that cbd forms emulsions that are more stable long term over thc. You should do small batches of 50ml or less and preform stability/ taste testing on them. Keep a notebook and write down all the ingredients/ ratios you have used in each batch. Slowly crank the amount of surfactant and carrier oil until you can create an mixture that is still stable and used the least amount of your surfactant/oil system.
Once you have a formula that is stable across temp ranges and doesn’t separate before the best by date your set.
Prepare to drink a lot of foul tasting beverage for science, and work small!
Great Read @Soxhlet Im curious about combining gum arabic, lecithin, pure pc, ethanol, MCT/LCT, and noids into an all in one mix then high shear then ultrasonic bath, refridgerate, ultrasonic again. Seems like that might be a good way to get a decent stable emulsion with small liposomes in the nm range. Thoughts?
I guess I’m looking for something that make low energy nanoemulsions possible.
Itching to read. And I’ll give that a shot. Do you have any tips on determining ratios? Being an engineer, my mind floats towards there being determinstic solutions based off of chemical and molecular properties. eg molar mass, carbon chain length, etc… but again, I’m ignorant.
