Solubility of cbd isolate/distillate in various carriers

Hash and Stuff Vape Carts
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Ok y’all. Share the supersaturation/ upper limit of mg/ml (or % total) that you’ve seen in various Cbd solutions. I’ve run into crystallization with both isolate and distillate at various concentrations and wanted to hear others experiences. This is for cartridges but can be useful info for tincture making as well.

For example, I’d love to know anyones success with:
Cbd isolate in PG-
Cbd isolate in MCT-
Cbd Isolate in PEG-
Cbd Isolate in PG/VG mix-
(please mention if its isolate or distillate, as well as the percent or mg/ml)

Most e-juice manufacturers top out at 1000mg per 30ml bottle which is 33.33mg/ml.

Ive run into the upper limit of Cbd isolate in PG at around 50mg/ml, and have gotten cbd distillate in 400mg/ml in MCT but that could have been a fluke. I am not usually a “carrier” formulator as I usually do terpene mixes with distillate but when duty calls…

What has worked for you? Tips/tricks/additives/tools?

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Look into homogenization. You can side step the need for emulsifiers if you blast a mixture of cbd isolate and carrier with tons of pressure

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There has got to be an upper limit even with homogenization. Do you have experience in successfully homogenizing a high percentage of cbd into a carrier?

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I have no cannabis chemistry experience, only theoretical knowledge from an engineering and pharmaceutical background. However, you are definitely correct that there will be an upper limit, and without an emulsifier, even this will separate after a certain period.

You’ve got to do some experimental design, if you want a skeleton for one I’d be happy to provide it here.

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Yes, I would love an explanation/skeleton for design from an engineering and pharmaceutical background. I believe that hearing expertise, opinions and/or tips from those with knowledge in different realms is integral to the growth and progress of the industry.

At the very least, I will learn something and at the very most, I will have completely answered my question. I will be able to test the suggested SOP or at least consider the information in my own SOP. I definitely respect all knowledge and I’m thankful for yours.

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Alrighty, you’ll need an accurate scale, plenty of vials and accurate liquid measuring devices.

NOTE: When using measuring devices, the minimum weight you can accurately measure is equal to 0.412000d. Where d is the smallest display value. If your scale has a 0.0001 readability the minimum weight you can accurately measure is 0.4120000.0001 = 0.082g = 82mg.

So when you weigh, place a large amount on the scale and calculate what you’re removing.

Now, you want to determine the highest concentration of cannabinoid per given carrier. So determine what concentrations you want to test 10 mg/ml, 20 mg/ml, 30 mg/ml, etc.

Then, measure out several ml (let’s say 10-100ml) whatever accuracy your instruments can deliver—Pipettes are a good investment—and multiply it by the concentration to determine what weight of isolate to add. I.e. for 100mg of carrier and 10mg/ml you’d add 100ml*10mg/ml or 1000mg.

Repeat for each concentration three (or more) times in three separate vials. Let sit.

Visually inspect to see what solutions don’t crystallize and which do. That will give you a lower concentration limit in which you can safely determine no crystallization.

Ways to improve your experiment:

mix the solutions at different concentrations in bulk—it will give you more consistency. Don’t make solutions at 100ml. If you’re going to do five vials per concentration, make 500ml and then measure it out appropriately.

(I know my numbers are ridiculously high for volume, adjust appropriately)

Store the solutions long term and at constant temperature, this is how pharma does stability studies that give you an expiration date. You can do several temperatures simultaneously, a set of vials at 10C, a set at 25C, etc

Use homogenization and compare with hand mixed, this will determine the effectiveness of homogenization.

Obviously do this with different carriers (solvents) to determine their relative effectiveness for the task.

Keep results well organized or you’ll regret it.

Use AT LEAST THREE replicates or your results are statistically insignificant and basically don’t means squat.

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I’ve been tasked with making a 10,000 mg CBD isolate tincture with MCT oil as the carrier. Is this even possible? I don’t want to ruin a bunch of isolate trying to figure it out. I saw somewhere that someone got up to 400 mg/ml of oil, but I don’t know how accurate that is. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

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The question would be how many ml is the tincture? If its a 60ml bottle (a lot of tinctures are 30-60ml) then that would be about 10 grams of product in a 60ml bottle or 166.66mg/ml

You could check the solubility by performing a test with only 1 gram in a similar dilution. (6 grams of MCT) Please note these calculations are very crude and do not account for true potency of the isolate or the displacement of product due to additions.

Remember to keep your test vial in similar conditions as the tincture will be. Make sure to pick it up and swirl it around as if you were picking the bottle up to take some tincture. You could even drop a tool or other dropper in the vial to simulate the disturbance of a dropper. Remember, crystals sometimes will not form as fast or at all if you do not agitate your solution. Ive had formulas that stayed in solution for weeks undisturbed but only days once I moved the jar around or scooped some out.

If it doesn’t crystallize, I assume its going to taste TERRIBLE. Cbd is very bitter, especially at higher concentrations. There is probably some info about masking the flavor online.

ps. Your CBD tincture will not be worth much to the body without terpenes. It really sad to me how many cbd isolate products there are out there with no terpenes.
Friends don’t let friends go without terpenes, its just wrong! I get mine from www.buy-terpenes.com

Let me know how your studies go.

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You need to develop your product small scale, then scale up your working recipies.

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note the disconnect here?

400mg/ml is a concentration.
10,000mg is a mass.

Can you make a 10,000mg tincture?
Sure. You might even be able to make it at 400mg/ml.
@Audra is not the only one who has thrown that number around (nor am I).

Making a 10,000mg tincture means taking 10g of your 99.9+% isolate and dissolving it…in any amount of solvent. So you should have no problems if that is actually the goal.

can you make a 10,000mg/ml tincture?

No. Distillate floats on water, but only just, and has a density that can be reasonably approximated here as 1g/ml (986mg/ml might be closer)…so the only way you’re going to get above 1000mg/ml is to start with more than 100% cannabinoids (scoring 104% on your 3rd party testing doesn’t count).

I used to formulate my CBD in MCT at 10mg/ml or 300mg per 30ml/1oz bottle. While I have made CBD in MCT at and slightly above 400mg/ml, I do not have any stability data for that concentration.

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Why do you say that? Ive been using cbd isolate for over 2 yrs now. I dab that when my migrains spur up. 1 min later, no migraine. But always returns hr or so later. So i redab.

I also make cbd isolate infused butter and oil (for baking) for 4x multiple sclerosis patients and 1 prostate cancer patient. 3yrs now, all prefer the isolate over my former personally grown cbd/thc extracted plant.

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@Demontrich Research the entourage effect. Its about how cbd/thc and other cannabinoids absorb MUCH better when used with terpenes. Yes you’re getting an effect but it could be much more effective with far less product. Ebbu, a lab in colorado put 99.8% thc on a brain receptor and it lit up 40%. They combined a less potent THC (80%) with terpenes and that same receptor lit up 80%.

To compare, It can be related to how certain vitamins are better absorbed when taken with different foods in your body. Its definitely not the same but its a good analogy to understand it.

Look up terpenes for migraines or other ailments. Your migraine might be affected even better with the addition of some complementary terpenes. There are terpenes for anti convulsive, anti bacterial, anti cancer, anti inflammatory etc…

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@Audra Do you have any real comparative data like ones you would find in a medical journal or are you just quoting a study done by one lab in one state with no real medical research. Has this study been published in any meaningful medical journal?

I have also read that you can eat a grapefruit and get higher that doesnt mean im eating one every time i take a dab.

Really if your gonna post something like that you should be backing it up with medical proof. Especially when guiding a person who is now smoking essentially a pure medicine probably pure to within a few points…to cut it with something essentially dropping the purity with no really scientific backing. This is why we feed our lab rats medicine before testing it on humans. The cannabis industry seems to make its customers their lab rats.

And this is from someone thats not a fan of any isolate because there are no terpenes…but i also have found dabbing THC isolate with non-cannabis terpenes to give me a headache almost instantly.

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Blah…

I have over 20 yrs of self medicating with cannabis.

10yr grower
4 yr extraction processor

Currently I treat many multiple sclerosis, cancer patients, and myself (i have a very rare form of rheumatoid arthritis). My 4x MS patients all kicked at least 4 scripts daily. All 6 sleep a full 8hrs a day. I havent taken a RA drug in 5 yrs (methotrexate, remicaide).

So please dont tell me it’s from the Terps!

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Why is everyone so combative on these forums… It makes me sick.

@Demontrich terpenes are in cannabis naturally so if you are making any kind of extraction besides distillate there will be some terpenes in there. I’m not saying its all about the terpenes. I’m saying they are important in how they interact and help the cannabinoids work. Terpenes are also responsible for a lot of the different effects you receive from cannabis. How are you treating people without knowledge of terpenes and their effects? Come on! Thats why different strains have their different effects for pain, anxiety, etc…

Im happy to hear your patients are doing well. It would be beneficial to look into terpenes and their effects if you’d like to further improve/customize your treatments. Being able to treat people with certain terpene and cannabinoid blends/strains/ratios is the most medicinal application of cannabis you could do. Cannabis can be tailored to suit specific needs and can possibly prove to be more effective when you get into this method.

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it… I can see you saying that, and thats totally fine, but I still implore you to look into it just for the sake of knowledge.

@Killa12345 Ebbu is not a testing lab, they are a private medical lab within a cannabis company. They are conducting trials on the cb1 and cb2 receptors as well as other receptors. They aren’t the best company in terms of a brand or business people, but they are killing it with independent scientific studies. I toured their facility and they have a lot of legitimate cell culture equipment and they isolate all their cannabinoids for the studies. They are working on many studies from anxiety, to depression, to an antidote for THC overdoses. (And before you jump down my throat about the word"overdose" I just mean when someone is too high and they want to come down faster.)

Here are some links to studies as well as a infographic about how terpenes and cannabinoids do their magic TOGETHER. (with scientific credits because ya’ll like to debate.)

Maybe you’ll gain respect and trust for me one day due to my knowledge of what i’m speaking about and I wont have to appease your nay-saying. I was telling this person to add terpenes to an ISOLATE tincture, because its not whole plant and you need those terpenes for proper absorption and effects. I wasn’t telling someone to add terpenes to a whole plant extract. I know this forum is for all kinds of people in all kinds of knowledge levels, but I’m not some random person spurting bullshit.

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You shouldnt take this personal. Im not questioning you as a person. Im questioning the products your are selling.

I dont believe your spitting random bullshit. BUT i do believe your using sneaky marketing here. I personally was only talking about isolates and referred to it in my post.

I believe you work for an extremely well respected company which is sold by a number of reputable re-sellers. Thats why i dont understand why you took this all personal, and you feel the need to defend yourself.

I never jumped down your throat for anything. If i came off that way i do apologize. I just question anything i put in my body. I personally want to live forever. I know this is not possible but i live my life with those intentions. I question everything and anything. Especially when it comes to health.

I did read those articles. Thats not really medical proof. Nor are those really medical journals either. Those are studies, but they still need proving. Im sure i can find studies showing how these Impurities are not good for other parts of your body like throat or lungs.

Im a lifer in this hobby. I been smoking out of 6ft bongs since middle school but around the time i got around to college…i realize this drug wasnt hindering my performance rather enhancing it. Since then, ive been on a personal journey to make the absolute best medicine i can ingest. I dont do this for profit nor is this my livelihood. I do this because without this drug…id probably be on every pharmaceutical under the sun.

Once again i apologize if you felt i questioned you as a human being. I just feel anything that takes away from the natural way this plant was created…is bad. Im not for GMO cannabis products nor anything that can cut potency or make it away the plant didnt create.

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I didn’t disclose that I worked for this company for this exact reason. People wouldn’t take my love for terpenes seriously. People would think that me suggesting to make sure their product has a full spectrum of terpenes was just marketing.

Do I post a link after I mention terpenes more often? Barely, but yes. Do I mention terpenes any more than I would if I didn’t work there? No. I post as honestly and as often as I would if I didn’t work there.

If you see, each member on this board has their own style for writing and their expertise. I post about carts and formulation and terpenes the most. Some post about extraction. Some are noobs looking to learn. All contribute in their unique way.

To be clear, I was defending myself because it seemed a little combative to just immediately ask for medical proof. If that was everyones argument on this board with everyones advice this would be a very dry forum. I was also upset that Demontritch basically completely discredited terpenes in his post by saying “So please don’t tell me it’s from the Terps!” When terps absolutely have something to do with his success in treating his patients with cannabis.

All I want is for people to make quality product and get the best effect from it. I just want terpenes to be credited and used. It is becoming harder and harder to get a holistic (most terps intact, less refinement) plant extraction these days since there is so much distillate and refinement which destroys and strips terpenes.

THE POINT: Make sure there are terps in your products whether or not they come from the plant you’re extracting or the company I work for. Its easy to endorse my company because I was an avid user of them before I worked there but I really just am advising full spectrum formulations when I speak about terps.

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I’ll stick to what works for my many patients and myself. I may not be a big commercial player like you all, but I can guarantee you I grow, and make a variety of products that have kept me and my family very well fed the last 10 yrs and still going strong.

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Hi, this is off topic, do you know a school or anyone I can learn how to extract and make isolate? Any info would be helpful.
Thanks
Jake

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Do you have any studies or proof the entourage effect works when ingesting the terpenes aswell? Everything that mentions the entourage effect is talking about smoking or vaporizing the product, it would be sweet to see some studies though. Im still skeptical the profiles keep their “effect” when ingested, based off personal experience.