how much biochemistry do you have?
you’re not making sense.
I’m not saying it’s vitamin e.
I’m saying nowhere do the researchers from the mayo rule it out.
you claimed
yet you’re using the absence of lipoid pneumonia to rule out vitamin e…
or at least taking the WSJ at face value.
according to a published letter to the editor. not a peer reviewed study. a rapid communication of findings during a public emergency, but not a “study”.
Lipoid pneumonia was my point. And the point made in the Mayo Clinic study. I’m not a biochemist. Feel free to correct the Mayo Clinic study if you see flaws, please.
The WSJ and NY Times articles were written after the reporters spoke with Dr. Larson for more context. So I’m pretty sure they are worth taking under consideration.
That quote of mine is from weeks ago. It had nothing to do with the Mayo Clinic study. But it does support what I was guessing regarding lipoid pneumonia and vit E oil:
So far the theme was it’s vit E acetate causing lipoid pneumonia, because doctors thought the lipid-laden macrophaes in ill people meant they had lipoid pneumonia. But I was guessing vit E oil won’t cause lipoid pneumonia, and the Mayo Clinic study claimed they don’t see lipoid pneumonia, and they didn’t find oils covering the lung tissue.
I hope that helps bridge my post from weeks ago to this thread today.
If that’s what you take away from this topic that’s too bad. Good thing I didn’t say it was peer reviwed, or anything other than a study. But maybe we define “study” differently: “a detailed investigation and analysis of a subject or situation”
In the supplent, the authors themselves refer to it as a “study supported by the Mayo”… so “study” it is.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/suppl/10.1056/NEJMc1913069/suppl_file/nejmc1913069_appendix.pdf
all we have is “not drowing in oil”. period.
if you define vit e acetate as an oil AND insist that the only way it can damage lungs is by “drowing” in it, then you have the right end of the stick.
the researchers in question think the jury is still out.
agreed.
now there is data saying the problem doesn’t appear to be “drowing in oil”.
that does not rule out vitamin e.
it only rules out drowing in vitamin e.
even if it wasn’t the vita E thickener, fuck all of those cutting agents…
You guess that Vitamin e “oil” doesn’t cause lipid pneumonia.
They don’t find lipid pneumonia.
In no way does this prove vitamin e is not the culprit.
If your guess was correct AND the Mayo found lipid pneumonia, that would rule out vitamin e.
Does that make my point clear?
Caustic makes me think they’re vaping the batteries…
I know someone one here already stated this but its looking more and more like some people with out the right skill sets have been reading Cannabis Alchemy and trying to do some conversions with sulphuric acid or other strong acids and not removing them correctly. Its the only thing that really adds up to me as to why they would have chemical burns.
I mean it’s happened to people with nicotine carts too if i recall so I’m not sure if that could be it.
I bet my lungs look similar to all these victims. And I can pinpoint a period in time when I was unknowingly dabbing mystery oils from an incredibly poorly manufactured CMEP-OL pump. My lungs haven’t fully recovered since (I’m also a dumbass for continuing to smoke/dab).
I’m in the UK, not heard of a single case over here, can you link me where you found cases in the uk?
Looks like it has been happening worldwide for a while, but not really reported.
no mention of the UK in that report, or any others I’ve read.
Popcorn lung was identified over here a good 4 or 5 years ago, linked to Diacetyl, which UK vape juice producers no longer use (I believe, mine certainly doesnt) … but this spate of recent deaths isnt being reported as linked with Diacetyl or popcorn lung.
I read this:
Meanwhile, apparent cases of vaping-related lung injuries continued to appear. In 2015, a 34-year-old woman showed up at Birmingham Heartlands Hospital in England with respiratory failure after using e-cigarettes. Doctors detected fat in her lung immune cells and concluded she contracted lipoid pneumonia from using e-cigarettes. But the case wasn’t published in a medical journal until last year. Gareth Walters, a consulting pulmonologist, said he sent a letter to the maker of the patient’s e-cigarette asking for a list of ingredients, but never received a response.
yeah 2015 was about the time the popcorn lung thing cropped up over here and manufacturers stopped using diacetyl (supposedly). Maybe these new deaths are the same thing, but I don’t think so
I don’t know if all (or any) of these are the same cause, but these are the news stories I’ve read. There is some off topic cases like you mentioned for popcorn lung, but other cases may be of the same cause.
In some cases people had ‘oil’ in their lungs from vaping VG in nicotine e-cigs according to the reports (no vit E acetate at all). And the same thing seems to have been found in the US in some case reports (from VG) over the past 5 years. These seem to be the same injury as seen in mouse study from last month I posted above. These seem to be different than the chemical/toxic inhalation injury this thread is about. But I didn’t read too much into these cases from the UK.
Case report: Respiratory failure caused by lipoid pneumonia from vaping e-cigarettes
Here’s the official write up on the study by the Mayo Clinic. A must read.
“While we can’t discount the potential role of lipids, we have not seen anything to suggest this is a problem caused by lipid accumulation in the lungs. Instead, it seems to be some kind of direct chemical injury, similar to what one might see with exposures to toxic chemical fumes, poisonous gases and toxic agents,” says Brandon Larsen, M.D., Ph.D., a surgical pathologist at Mayo Clinic Arizona, and a national expert in lung pathology
“We were not surprised by what we found, regarding toxicity,” says Dr. Larsen, senior author of the study. “We have seen a handful of cases, scattered individual cases, over the past two years where we’ve observed the same thing, and now we are seeing a sudden spike in cases. Our study offers the first detailed review of the abnormalities that may be seen in lung biopsies to help clinicians and pathologists make a diagnosis in an appropriate clinical context.”
Vaping-associated lung injury can be difficult to diagnose, unless clinicians and pathologists are armed with information beforehand, Dr. Larsen says.
“This is a public health crisis, and a lot of people are working frantically around the clock to find out what the culprit or culprits could be — and what chemicals may be responsible,” Dr. Larsen says. “Based on what we have seen in our study, we suspect that most cases involve chemical contaminants, toxic byproducts or other noxious agents within vape liquids.”
im in canada and i havent heard of any either