Has anyone used the chilling units from perma-cool? Seem like an interesting option but would love to hear some opinions from some of peers.
Thanks in advance
E
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Good question! It seems like Delta and Ace have moved away from pairing their CUP/Spinner with MTA and both are now going with Perma-cool? Can’t find much history on this company so I’m interested in hearing some testimonials too. Anybody have feedback on MTAs?
The MTA chillers have a minimum glycol supply temperature of 16°F so they are used mainly for the solvent condensing part of the extraction process. Pumped glycol chilling systems like the MTA allow the entire refrigerant loop to be pre-engineered and factory charged, so the chiller installation can be performed by a plumber. The Perma-Cool system seems more suited to chilling the liquid solvent back down to the low process temperature after it is condensed. The promoted efficiency gain comes from pumping the 2-phase refrigerant from the outdoor condensing unit to the indoor evaporator and back without an intermediate fluid. That does mean that the refrigerant piping needs to be engineered and installed on site and the system has to be charged with refrigerant on site by a certified HVAC tech.
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Hey All!
Just wanted to stop by and add some information to the thread.
Our main solution for pre-chilling ethanol is direct refrigeration. One example would be the ACP30 we produced for Delta Separations. It’s by far the most effective/efficient way to rapidly chill ethanol. We average 25% or better efficiency than fluid process/bath chillers. Our designs also allow for the user to have the chilling process inside the C1D1/D2 area. These models do require onsite HVAC setup. We do often hear customer concerns in regards to the need for an HVAC tech. We have two easy answers. One. We make each of our chiller models in a self-contained unit similar to an MTA. Two. All chillers of this size require a plumber and electrician. Our unit does not require a plumber. In essence. Its no more work and saves a ton in electrical costs long run. We come commission and install anything west of Kansas & south of Canada.
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IMO the price is not competitive. Honestly I am continually frustrated by there still not being any great knockout option for chillers. Now there are some very very powerful chillers with a new design coming from some chinese vendors and claiming UL certification to boot, but I have not tried them and can’t attest to their quality. I would like to see something like them that I could actually be confident in.
One nice thing about indirect cooling over direct is if you’re operating only one or two shifts a day you can use the off hours to pre-cool a large volume of solvent and theoretically get more done with a smaller capacity chiller. You can do that with direct cooling but it is more complicated.
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Can’t speak on the price. but I have some experience with their gear and it seems sound functionally. I watched their system cool ethanol to about -20c in roughly 15 minutes. Their units have a fairly large footprint in the lab, but most units of this capacity do. The control panel is easy enough to navigate and the chiller its self and controls can be mounted outside the extraction booth. If someone was interested in working with them, as long as the the price is fair I think you’d be happy with it. Everything is IMO though and your mileage may vary.
I have first hand experience in the ACP30 they made for the delta units and although i’ve only got about 6 or so hours testing it out it performs as said. We chill 35 gallons of solvent to -40c in roughly 35-40 minutes or so. As for the price for the product I do believe its a bit high for what you’re getting. There are concerns with FDA compliance as the fluid chilling the process solvent isn’t food grade and if there were to be a rupture in the heat exchanger it would contaminate the process fluid. It’s effective and in the end will fly until FDA approval is required for your specific operation.
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Time for propane chillers @downtheterphole
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My experience with @PermaCool has not been great at all. If anyone wants to know the details, PM me and I can go into details. But in a nutshell, it has been over month late but what bug us the most is the silent treatment and lack of communication. You would think for a system that cost that much that you get some service with it… and I’m not asking much.
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highly recommend staying away from permacool. Delta has their own unit they built ina collab with G&D Chillers. The unit is C1D2 rated (for those who have licensed labs) and it performs like a beauty…like their extraction equipment.
Perma cool is not a rated and has had trouble addressing issues from the get go.
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Highly recommend going with the Perma Cool system. These guys are really smart and their gear is suuuuuuper sick. Their units are C1D1 rated and fully compliant with California Type 7 requirements. Their heat transfer fluid based systems live entirely inside the C1D1, reservoir and heat exchange in all, and so do the hydrocarbon systems with the exception of course of the small refrigerant lines going in and out, and the rooftop condenser and compressor.
Doing an Iron Fist EX-30-10 install at
Frosty, in the southern end of the Emerald Triangle.
Alongside @PermaCool
Pretty stoked, I’ve been hoping to see an Iron Fist paired up with one of their direct refrigeration hydrocarbon systems for quite some time. They’re going with a double stack, column and solvent tank chilling below direct hydrocarbon refrigeration after the Haskel pump, (or not) on the vapor condensing and return side.
For pictures and video, check the perma cool & frosty IG accounts! They filmed the crane lifting the badass condensers on to the roof and other things while I was out tracking down things to suspend the air pipe from a beam, and none of the three places I tried have stainless steel shallow Power Strut or Unistrut or any strut for that matter. 
I have an error code on one of my compressors from Perma cool, trying to get in touch all week. Have you seen any error codes in your Flux box? Mine is flashing saying PSA then 50F.
I recommend staying as far away from Perma cool as possible. Had their set up on a Delta Cup 30 for -40C ethanol extraction.
First tech that Perma Cool sent, they wired the compressor backwards, which fucked it as soon as he turned it on. I immediately called the President of the company, who gave me his word that he would replace that unit ASAP. After waiting months for a replacement, we finally got another unit installed, and then they tried to charge me for a new unit. They set us back months and cost us hundred of thousands of dollars (this was when CBD crude was $2k/kg).
This time I had an actual HVAC tech look at it. He told us the system was not set up correctly for what we needed, and that the compressors would break if run non stop (they had no liquid solenoid check valves and no liquid overflow tanks. Liquid coolant would return to the compressor and fuck it up after about 2hrs of running). You will hear it sound like someone is throwing water onto a fan. I called PermaCool, they denied denied denied, saying that they have the finest engineers, etc, and that it is supposed to make that sound. We ran the system, but it never got to -40C like PermaCool promised.
The compressor went out on both of the chillers after 2 months. Called PermaCool and they refused to believe that anything was wrong. They even suggested at one point that I give their system 1hr cool down period between runs. That is completely unacceptable. I spent 15k for another HVAC tech to fix the broken system.
I talked with Delta and others who have used PermaCool systems. Delta Sep in not so many words apologized to me for recommending PermaCool. Their customer service was awful, and it was clear that they put these machines to market without proper engineering oversight.
STAY AS FAR AWAY FROM PERMA COOL AS YOU CAN. there is a reason why Delat Sep uses someone else. Just call Delta Sep and ask them why they no longer use Perma Cool. I paid a lot of money for terrible service, ignorant “techs”, and at the end of the day the equipment never did what Perma Cool and Delta promised it would.
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Unfortunately, we have had a similar experience, just not with the compressors being wired incorrectly. We had to pay and HVAC company 13K to set up their system (with no instructions) and troubleshoot when they left. (again with no operator manual).
Good Luck to you!
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