So…now that the cap is out of the bag, can we all have donuts?
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I can get them made for anyone who wants to buy them.
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Yup. I always run my crude at -20. Been doing it that way for years. anything colder for crude is just a waste of power and money IMO.
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Well, I’ve got two (three?) of the full-size prototype you’re sitting in that presently need a job. No donuts required.
They won’t be ideal for their second possibly duty - separating and washing isolate slurry - so I’d be happy to let them go to a good home that’s going to keep them spinning. I believe they should be able to do at least 200kg per hour if you pushed on them hard enough.
The rotors are >=800kg IIRC. They’ll take a lot more unbalance than a panda will. They were designed around a 320 LPM wash flow rate.
There’s at least one critical difference between these prototypes and the patent I posted previously, so they’re not infringing on anyone’s IP that I’m aware of. And I’m not having any more made after these ones anyways. I’d rather make money running machines than building them.
But if everyone wants donuts, it looks like they’ll have to ask Delta really nicely because that patent has been assigned to them.
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Try wait.
I know this may sound like heresy…
but the entire idea of -40c to -60C extraction in 200 proof alcohol is fundamentally flawed.
The easiest concept…is why would anyone extract dry hemp/marijauna which is 10% H20 with 200 proof alcohol?
the rest is proprietary…but I can only say there is at least a 100
years of literature concerning extracting plant material with alcohol,
and the marijuana industry is not the first to not want fats and
chlorophyl. Do a literature search. It is not to say -40C doesn’t supress fat and chloropyll extraction…it does! There are other ways as well.
Jar is 10 min sonicated in “alcohol” at room temp, filtered 0.2u,
That material, backextracted into Pentane, dried gives left 3 lanes of chomatogram. Hemp…acids and cbd visible. Right 3 lanes are the
left material, decarbed open air @ 250F 2hrs. This TLC demo, is just to show the relative purity of the first step extract and the lower acids
disappear on decarb. Produces a nice feed stock and can also be used for 2nd stage “counter current” extraction fluid for a second
batch of biomass.
I admit to having a chemisty back ground.
I’ve worked with and specialize in alcohol/water/ and alcohol water mixtures in the pretreatment processing of hemp and extraction.
Can you do it at room temp? Yes. More over, you don’t even need the alcohol!
Extractions can be done with water at room temp…
ie. full spectrum acids with pH adjustment. Three buckets and a filter.
It is all in the literature and patents, but there are certain problems
that arise.
The alcohol system noted here is just crude feed stock.
No winterization at all. Moreover, if you winterize, nothing falls out…
it is not in the extract. 500mg dab of prewashed carbon was added to
the bulk extract prior filtration…color enhancement.
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There are many many ways of skinning this particular cat.
I don’t know anyone who knows what they are doing that advocates for using 200 proof as an extraction solvent. The consensus is that if you’re using ethanol, you should stick with 190, which you would see if you search a bit. I believe if you search for Ethanol Azeotropes that thread discusses the matter in some depth.
In fact, I’ve got pretty in depth in-house research showing that adding water to your ethanol or allowing not insignificant amounts of water to collect in your ethanol extraction stream can be beneficial in multiple ways. Not ideal in others, but that’s life.
Doing a liquid/liquid extraction into a different solvent is also well known to be a useful thing.
Playing with pH also does all sorts of fun things. Some of which are public knowledge, some of which arent. Sounds like you might know a thing or two on that topic. If that’s the case, ease feel free to start a new topic and share your knowledge with the class.
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The whole idea of -40 extraction with 95% EtOH is fundamentally flawed. Perhaps, you will like this choice of terminology better?
Well you are well aware that there is a whole spectrum of variation.
First off…if you have 95% EtOH plus the water in your particular biomass you can calculate exactly how much water you have.
I am sure you can figure it out…in fact there are patents exploring the entire range of EtOH/water mixtures…point is to do what you need to do to eliminate the -40 C and eliminate
the winterization step. I am only answering Lincoln20XX question.
Some methods become aculturated .into the weedo culture of marijuana processing. -40 C is one of these notions. Yes it is Heresy.
Ethanol is expensive, C1D2 and requires a lot of technology and crew
on back side to recover. It appears you know exactly what I am talking about…but on the dilute side you need knowledge of micelle
behavior for CBDA and THCA extracts in water-dilution. So the real trick is how do you handle them. They can be very stable.
Back extraction is such a routine step, I only mentioned it because I want the reader to understand exactly what is represented on the
plate…I am being particularly vague…as back extracting EtOH with
hexane or pentane…is not straight forward.
Try this…isolate some THCA in Crystalline form.
Cool it to -40 C and pour -40C EtOH over the top…
and report how long it takes to go into solution.
It works with fresh marijuana to some extent because the THCA is already in Trichome- terp solution when you do it. Not because THCA is particularly soluble in EtOH at -40C.
Also solubilities of CBDA and THCA in EtOH-Water solutions
are considerably different.
Your comments are right on. appreciated…
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To be clear: I’m not extracting below ambient temperatures, and I’m not using ethanol in my solvent matrix in my facility.
This post is to help those who are using temps below -20°C, in informing them that they don’t need to do so.
Are there better ways to do it, for lots of values of better? Absolutely. That’s not what we’re discussing here.
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I misunderstood it as a question. It is a statement…I agree.
I sorry to have misunderstood this…it has nothing to do with
your shop, what you are running, and no way any criticism of
something you wrote.
Please go back to your discussion…
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It’s all good, misunderstandings happen!
We’re all here to try to help each other and share knowledge.
And you’re right, this is not a process that I would recommend to anyone if they were not doing colder ethanol already.
This adjustment could make their existing system more efficient, but it’s not going to be one that I would recommend a friend install if they are building a new extraction system.
Note: I’m not a patent attorney. Unsolicited advice is worth what you paid for it.
With Delta owning that patent, and Delta being owned by a VC fund, I would not recommend anyone make money off something that infringes their IP. With that said, don’t sell sprayballs or nozzles on centrifuges and you are probably fine.
Then again, if you’re big enough to be targeted by them on a patent suit, you’ve probably got the ability to access enough debt that you can leverage into a much better system than a chilled ethanol spray system, and you’re not looking in the area of their IP anyways.
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I guess if you sold the fuge without the modifications, and then added them after purchase and setup would anybody really be the wiser? Just 1 off thing from the patent, and it’s not really that patent right? (I honestly don’t know, so that’s both a statement and a questions!)
That’s not a route I’d go down myself - too much risk that some hungry lawyers would come after you.
Of course, I doubt most Chinese manufacturers give a single flying fuck about Delta’s IP.
(Hint: with a patent, you have to publish a method. Which is then public. If you put everything into patents there is nothing except your willingness and ability to be ligititious to stop anyone from copying it. Patents are worth what you can pay to enforce them. Thus, be wary of VC firms and companies like Canopy if you’re playing close to their IP.)
I’m shocked we haven’t seen spray wash systems come out of China yet to be honest.
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I’m baffled as to why Delta stopped including the required hardware…
I also get stuck on “non-obvious to those skilled in the art”.
using a 'fuge was an obvious move to me before delta came out with their machine. clearly obvious too others too (although not my employers at the time).
why did my used Bock come with a spray nozzle if delta was the first to conceptualize spraying solvent over material being washed in a centrifuge? So how is it non-obvious? (so how is it enforceable?!?)
what I truley love is when the CEO extols me to come up with patentable material on command? What the actual fuck? if I’ve got it in my head right now, then it’s obvious to one skilled in the art. if I’m skilled enough in the art that you think I can come up with non-obvious shit, what the hell makes you think that “non-obvious” is just laying around in my head waiting for you to ask me to write it down?!? If it’s reasonable, chances are I’ve tried it…
the good stuff requires a team with a diverse skill/knowledge set, so that their insights truly are NON OBVIOUS.
/soapbox
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To a reasonable person? None of it is.
I personally don’t agree with the concept of intellectual property in the slightest. Especially the “first to file” standard that everyone in the world goes by now instead of “first to invent.”
Canopy patented NiTechs COBC that has been in use for at least 5 years. They submitted the patent in 2018. It got granted last year. They can now likely sue NiTech and have a good chance of getting royalties on something they did nothing for.
We only apply for patents because it’s one of the things you have to do to play the game at the level we want to.
Trade secrets are MUCH more valuable in my mind. If I figure out something clever, I’m not going to write it up and tell the world and sue anyone else who does something similar. That’s just rent seeking, and I’m no scumbag landlord.
Instead, I’m going to do like WD-40 did. Keep the secret close to my chest, and make a ton of money on it.
Let the competition wonder, don’t give them a blueprint.
And always be improving and innovating so if they DO figure it out you’re not caught with your pants down.
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Can’t you just adjust your spray nozzle angles, and flow rate, and solvent system, and a few other little things and call it something new?
Surely pissing solvent into a washing machine isn’t IP
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Yeah, patents are generally possible to work around.
The delta one is fairly well written, but there are a couple of big spots that you could probably use to demonstrate “novelty” if you want to play that game. We chose not to on this topic.
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“Is that operator peeing into a funnel into your cannabis extraction??”
No he’s adding organic uric acid into our patented centrifugal process. Now go away or he’ll get some on you too.
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Ok… This is next level…
I thought this went through a spd at least…
Ex in the fuze → roto - >and marlyin monroe crude done??
The etoh hits the biomass and leaves it instanlty? Just makes so much sense…
Thats flash ethanol extraction, not just qwet:)
Heh @MagisterChemist you got my for the most prettyiest crude of 2021!!
Do yoh have any CoAs on that one beautifull thing and what the nose on that one… ?
Anyway gonna attempt a DIY to hook up my backpack water sprayer filled with etoh, to my manual sallad spinner with a drain and give it a go just to destroy some biomass in the name of poor mans extraction science :)) :)) :)) :)) :))
Glad to be born 
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Thank @Lincoln20XX you for sharing this, and pushing progresa forward when we thought theres a standstill…
Blessed is the noble spirit of the knowlegable… .
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