Iso and water to dewax

Hmm. A lot of interesting data to parse, and I’m not sure we can reach a definite conclusion. I’m not so sure there are hydrolysis reactions occurring at these conditions, mainly because most hydrolysis of esters/amides require much stronger acids than what you have. You are at high temperatures and the salinity may be helping, but still unlikely upon first glance (feel free to correct me!) Salinity is an important factor for protein folding, but pH is just as, if not more important and I think that’s what we’re seeing (ie going in and out of solution). That’s one possibility.

I also see a similar type of substance when doing water washes (the ‘bad temperature’ photo). While it looks like waste, it may actually be a water in oil emulsion; I do a water purge/decarb/devolatilization after my water wash to prep for dewaxing at 120C for 1hr under vac. At the start, there is always this scummy looking material stuck to the flask, but once the water is gone I have a smooth looking oil. In your case it could be mono/diglycerides (products of acid degumming) causing water to emulsify into your RSO. If you can, take a sample of the scummy material if you have it and heat it, under vacuum if possible, or in your oven at ~120C. If it returns to your RSO consistency, then that may be your answer (plus a way to increase yield :grinning:)

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Proteins, being polymeric materials, can also be directly removed by ultrafiltration with no need for flocculation.

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just not with an N95 mask…

and why are we getting (hypothesizing?) significant protein in a ethanol extraction to begin with.

Proteins were produced by fed-batch fermentation of Saccharomyces cerevisiae cultivated on date solution. Protein content was 52.5% (dry basis). Protein solubility was studied as a function of pH, NaCl concentration, and solvent. The minimum protein solubility was at pH 4 and the maximum was at pH 12. As a function of NaCl concentration, protein solubility was 647.6 g/kg for 1 M. The best solubility was 916.3 g/kg under pH 12 and 1 M NaCl. Solubility was very low, 2.1 g/kg, when ethanol was used as a solvent. Biomass was dried by air drying, vacuum drying, and freeze drying. The best solubility of 937.5 g/kg was obtained using freeze and vacuum drying methods.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19476337.2010.543472

I guess going to the trouble of opening ALL the cells up (and hence diluting the ethanol) might get you more proteins, but I’m dubious.

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As long as you have a lab style filtration system, protein can be cleaned up fine. Reality is, it’s not a regular household setup. I love mine, but the problem in front of me, is how to clean this up with what’s available in most kitchens.

As @Beaker mentioned above, “…grab of the wax (which also grabs the green)”, degumming/dewaxing not only flocs phospholipids, it flocs proteins as well. You’ve killed two birds with one stone…

Winterization can then be used to remove excess lipids.

The “why”? - Extraction at home is a mess. As GrayWolf documents, Isopropyl alcohol takes 20 seconds, ethanol 3 minutes to take 80% of the cannabinioids in a quick wash which sidesteps a huge portion of the problem. Its the Human Factor that becomes the problem now. From the center propagating outwards by word of mouth, extraction times keep doubling. I’ve heard 30 seconds, 3 minutes, 10 minutes, an hour, a day, and I have one friend swearing by month long soaks. Ug…

What is happening on longer soaks, the targeted oils and lipids are taken in the first few seconds of contact of alcohol on the trichomes. Alcohol hits the plant cell structure and it begins breaking it down either fast or slow depending on the water content. Water facilitates alcohol’s entry into cells, so the more water, the bigger the problem. 99.9% Alcohol ‘denatures’ the proteins, sealing up the plant’s outer layer so there’s less protein extracted but its not 100% success. There’s always protein in the mix, it’s unavoidable with a non-targeting solvent. For more info, google the reason 70% isopropyl is more effective than 99% for hand sanitizer.

I brought this up in @Beaker s thread to start a discussion about that unnamed ‘green gunk’ he mentioned. It’s not a problem for commercial extractors, but at home, impurities are the unnamed scourge in RSO. I dare say, most RSO I’ve encountered, even store bought RSO, is gritty and usually burnt. It’s the overheated proteins that cause the grit and the first to burn. You don’t burn oil at 212f, but you can really fuck up remaining proteins. Take a look at the picture above showing a ‘bad’ result. Denatured proteins hydrophobic side bonds to the oils, the hydrophilic side points outwards. This causes separation between the oil droplets. As the proteins go from a ‘salt-in’ hydrated state, to a ‘salt-out’ hydrophbic state, they look curl into spindly hair structures. Eventually, they fold up in to a tar ball and sink.

Of course its all about concentration. Frozen quick washes minimize protein extractions so that and winterization is the best path to clean oil. Longer soaks are pretty much the standard failure at home. I’ve spent the whole year (2021) sorting out a robust extraction process that is effective and inexpensive for creating a refined RSO.

Here’s an interesting study on alcohol & proteins.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Qiang-Shao-2/publication/221972591_From_protein_denaturant_to_protectant_Comparative_molecular_dynamics_study_of_alcoholprotein_interactions/links/57c6d31b08aefc4af34c2681/From-protein-denaturant-to-protectant-Comparative-molecular-dynamics-study-of-alcoholprotein-interactions.pdf

Here’s a couple interesting pics from the current run. I save the biomass for a 2nd extraction so this is my worst case scenario for messy RSO. This particular extraction was a 3 day 2nd soak. I use 2nd soaks for much of my testing since its such a f$&'d up mess. So, 3 day ISO wash, Lime Juice, swirl, then add water as a catalyst. Instant Bang! with flocs and settling. Pic 1 and 2 show the results and are filtered out via KN95. The 3rd pic is another 24 hrs in the freezer showing the coagulated waxes. (The optimal order of pipeline execution is still to be determined…)



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So one gets appreciable protein by “doing it wrong”?!?
(above cited soybean solubility protein data ~ 6g/gal)

I’ve also run into folks who believe in soaking from moon to moon.

If the solution it DON’T DO THAT, and you can’t get folks to listen, what do you reckon the probability of “well you can clean it up this way, and only loose 50% if you wait too long” is going to be adopted/implemented correctly?

Three quick washes will get more that 80%.

The route to golden EHO at 70+% cannabinoids can be short and cold, or long and fraught with losses.

It’s an up hill educational battle either way.

Given the choice between long soak with multi-step clean up, and “done in 10min”, I know which one I would preach.

Especially if I could prove I was loosing cannabinoids during clean up.

Not dissing your prep. Or your goals.

Just know which route I took when confronted with nasty tasting black goo.

Teaching folks who only need a little to directly infuse oil, and those that need a lot to hurry the fuck up seems more direct.

A hand powered cannabis disorienter with built in recirculation so this could be implemented by the average home user seems like another solution :shushing_face:

…then the need to actually crank the handle will either lead to decreasing rather than increasing extraction times, or folks motorizing the thing and (eventually?) figuring out for themselves that less was actually more…

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Howdy,

I’m answering/acknowledging all your points in my head, but will focus on the cleanup aspect. What comes from the standard RSO procedure sucks because all plant material gets boiled in. You know what I call it? La Brea. Maybe that should be the name for RSO/FECO/FULL SPECTRUM product.

If you dewax and winterize, you have 50%-75% volume of the baseline La Brea, which is good, to your point, less is actually more. Losing the impurities while minimizing the loss of cannabinoids is the goal. Yeah, its an education thing. What I’ve been focusing on is putting together an optimal path to the cleanest, least expensive oil that can be made in the kitchen, sans all the fun and fancy lab gear. I love my buchner but its a show stopper for most home medical MJ users. Wait till you see the full OP. There’s a lot of simple things that can be done that make a huge impact in the final product. The goal isn’t just clean red oil, but how quickly, inexpensively and safely it can be done by amateurs. That’s why I love Future4200, to look up at all the techniques/processes/chemicals used by commercial processors and try to consumerize it, such as filtering via N95/KN95.

On that note, I’d like to say, please keep giving feedback and ideas. All this will be published soon and updated yearly with new or improved techniques. Maybe even recommending a hand powered cannabis disorienter…

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Oops, I meant to reply to you, but clicked the wrong REPLY button, so it went to the general thread…

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I think part of the point of the RSO is to get all the “junk” under the assumption that it’s all beneficial.

If you’re trying to end up with an extract that’s more potent, less proteins & stuff; as a few people mentioned here. Keep things quick and cold. You’re not going to lose out cannabinoids relative to your losses in post production. And it’s gonna take way less time.

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get it dizzy
get it drunk

get it done
in just three dunk.

do it cold
avoid the gunk

that month long soak
is &^#(&@)((_)ing bunk!

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tgroovy

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Just needs a pump…(and a fancy name)

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I don’t think people “boil the plant matter” in making rso/feco.
The alcohol dissolves the Thc fairly quickly at room temp and even doing it super cold it’s still fast…the longer it sits around it gathers chlorophyll and other shit

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Why not a pesticide/fertsprayer…:yum::yum::yum:

Im doing this tonight… And youll get blamed by the wife for another night session in the lab :)))

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:man_facepalming:t2:

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I tested in on a straight unprocessed etoh extract and during filtration post winterisation.

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@MimiEmu

Terpenes being retained?

Boiling in water, that seems like a preety non modest statement…

You should be loosing them with almost every step of the process, not judging just a bit suprised by this statement…

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And it all tubes down to a gyroscopic decentralizer bucket… :stuck_out_tongue:

Edit:I aint an native english speaker…

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Same tool, slightly different trick.

Ye olde Maytag performed both as well.

@GrzA yep, a pressure sprayer along the lines of image

Would absolutely give a minimal viable product when paired with a foot powered cannabis disorienter (mop bucket). If the vent were replaced with a prv, one could do stupid things like drop dry ice directly in to both cool & pressurize the solvent.

Really concerned that I might have to actually implement this.

Note that this one already comes with a name…eliminate those nasty FECO traits from your RSO.

…which may or may not be a worthwhile goal.

There are a LOT of 2ndary metabolites in cannabis

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I’ve been using one of those to do water washes on my alkane layer :joy::joy:

Was thinking about refining thc-a with it in a similar manner with a high pH wash…

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