You sure told everyone that you were going to travel and help the guy out. Guess your word isn’t worth much.
You fucking dipshit. I traveled 2.5 hours one way to his place with $50 in free powders and a half zip of free tree(which he said was some of the best he’s smoked 
). I have him every piece of information he needed, and even sold him a BRAND NEW solvent tank for 30% off, all for him to quit become he couldn’t push and owned a undersized heater.
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Yeah, you sold him shit for more money and still didnt deliver. Way to go.
Again. Obvious your a basement dweller. Little to no real industry experience. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t force them to drink. Especially when you led them there for free, and were literally still standing next to them.
What a basement dweller, I expect you to deliver on posts to help the guy, and I want ralf to stop posting like he knows what the hell he is talking about. Not that I know, or anyone knows for sure. But ralf is full of hot air. I called him out. Now you come to white knight. What are you gonna sell @ralf for 30% discount?
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How am I a white night? I’m just calling you out. YOU think you are a know it all and can tell what type of person Ralph is through the screen. His reply to you wasn’t even sideways after your initial comment was obviously crooked as a politician. His comment was also on topic and didn’t even really make any claims. Your just a dick bro. My first interaction with ralph was actually negative. I just like his contributions.
According to AJ (and Chaco regarding the ECSD he grew), Sour D strongly expresses phenotypic plasticity. E.g., suppose someone grows identical clones in two different environments, using different nutrient profiles, etc. In that case, they will see noticeably different results.
“You can grow it ten different ways and produce ten different products,” says AJ, who’s spent the past couple decades perfecting the process. “I gave it out to a lot of people who would produce something that was nice and everything, but just wasn’t all there.”
If true, phenotypic plasticity, along with genetic mosaicism found in cannabis (aka clonal decay/genetic drift of old, clone-only plants caused by the accumulation of somatic mutations over time), could be a reason why original Sour D cuts (like AJ’s) seem different today than the same SD from the 90s. This could also help explain why two different cuts (e.g., AJ’s and Chaco’s) are dissimilar even if they came from the same Sour D plant 25 years ago.
For example, even though AJ’s Sour D came from Bro (via. a middle-man), Bro said the Sour D AJ gave him years later (after Bro lost his Sour D) wasn’t the same as the Sour D Bro had - but it was.
Tissue culture can ‘reset’ a cultivar to some degree, as can growing it outdoors under the sun for a season to a lesser extent (cloning before flowering). Still, I’m unsure if doubtful those practices can completely reset the plant to the pre-somatic mutation point.
Assessment of Cannabinoid levels in Successively Cloned Generations of industrial hemp (Cannabis sativa) (note that the thesis author misused the term “somaclonal variation” because she didn’t use tissue culture in her research)
For those interested, here are two excerpts from the history of Sour D I’m writing. These are draft forms and may change once I complete the information gathering and sifting phase (or for accuracy and grammatical reasons):
Sour D lineage:
‘Weasel’ (Mike Klopp) bred Sour Diesel (aka “Our Chem” or “Our Diesel”) on accident when he was growing bag seed from Chemdog (a pheno called Chemdog 91). According to AJ and Bro, the Chemdog 91 threw nanners, and either self-pollinated or was pollinated by something growing in the same room; no one knows for sure.
Bro thinks the SD father is a hermied Kushman Purple Kush. The other guys from that time (possibly including Mike K., Mike M., and Vondo A.) think the father is a hermied RFK. The RFK came from seeds within ‘skunk’ flower purchased at Grateful Dead show(s) at RFK stadium ca. 1991. Adam Dunn thinks the pollen came from a hermied Mass Super Sunk. Other people suggest the pollen came from a hermied DNL, thought to have a lineage of ((RFK x Hawaiian) x Northern Lights) or ((RFK x Northern Lights) x Hawaiian)
Sour D name:
Mike Maxwell and Vondo Almonso found seeds from a harvest of Chemdog 91 that Mike Klopp grew. They put the seeds away for storage. Vondo gave ‘Sour Silicate’ (Manny H.) some seeds, which he sprouted, and he (or Vondo?) found the original Sour D pheno.
But, other phenos from the seeded Chemdog 91 were likely grown, and the original SD was renamed, leading to confusion with Vondo’s/Manny’s original SD. Including Day Wrecker Diesel (pheno “D1,” for “diesel #1,” aka the original Headband) that Mike Klopp grew; which may have been a different cross altogether. And a ‘guy from the Upper West Side’ who renamed Manny’s SD that Bro (Kevin) gave him to “Cotten Candy.” AJ (part of the Staten Island crew) got his SD from the ‘guy from the Upper West Side,’ so AJ had the same SD as Manny, Vondo (AJ’s neighbor), and Bro.
According to Bro, the name Sour D came from either:
- A label on the cup of seeds after Vondo wrote “our diesel” (or “our chem”) and people said you can’t call it “ours,” so Vondo added an “s” in front of “our,” making it “sour diesel” (or “sour chem”).
- A label on one of a few cups with seeds from the same Chemdog 91 flower labeled “ours,” after Vondo added an “s” in front of “ours” to mark their seed cup.
However, according to AJ, the name Sour D came from jealousy. Back then, outstanding cannabis was called “diesel,” like, “oh man, that’s diesel!” The Sour D was so good that people’s attitude would get ‘sour’ when they couldn’t get it, hence, “Sour Diesel.”
No one seems to know how exactly the Sour D got its name, but Bro, Adam Dunn, and James Loud believe it’s one of the “s” added to “our” stories. It appears the only person who agrees with AJ’s version is AJ.
Some questions I have:
-
Does anyone know the nickname or name of “Jewish American prince from the Upper West Side,” as Bro calls him? AJ just calls him “the guy from the Upper West Side.”
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Is “Sour Silicate” the nickname for Manny H.? This appears to be the case. I am seeking clarification elsewhere, but I thought someone here might know.
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Way does Bro seem to refer to AJ as “Joe”?
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Has anyone grown the same (legit) Sour D cut in different environments or the same environment for many years and noticed or quantified differences in the flower?
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“you know it all”
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3 Asshole Joe
4 I grew the same sour for many years and it always expressed itself different at different grows with different inputs and energy. Ime.
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Look up the breeders syndicate podcast @ralf. Just last night notso said that the jay plant speaker cut is really a renamed headband. That’s my point, these waters are muddy. Just look for fire. Many cuts are renamed and passed. How do I know who to believe? I don’t. No one does.
I’m pretty sure that’s why he’s going to do the testing so the science will decide who is lying and who isn’t.
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Is this you, @ThumpsWook?
To address your incredibly astute points in order:
- Thank you, I think? LOL
- I didn’t read most of the info I’m collecting. I listened to the guys who were there and did the work talk about Sour D history. Or guys like Adam Dunn (founder of TH Seeds), who were good friends of Manny and Bro during the mid-90s, when they flew to Amsterdam with four cuts of Sour D to set up a grow and sell to the retail shops.
- I don’t think you know how genome sequencing works.
- Yes, because I have a few good strains to trade, and I trade my knowledge and experience. You would be surprised how willing people are to share genetics if they gain knowledge from you, especially if it’s information not commonly known and in demand. But hate posting doesn’t count, sorry.
- You have no idea what I’m writing and whether I’m accounting for discrepancies. For example, some people claim the Sour D seeds were in cups labeled “our diesel,” while others claim it was labeled “our chem.” And some people say Daywrecker isn’t a pheno from the seed lot that produced Sour D. All of which, of course, I’m including.
- I don’t think I’m smart, but the other guys that rode the short bus to school with me told me I’m smart.
- Funny you think I’m a know-it-all after I asked you where you got your info. A know-it-all wouldn’t ask; they would just tell you you’re wrong…like you’re doing to me
- Damn, I didn’t know you’re so horny for schadenfreude. Your posts seem to exemplify Dark Triad traits; you should probably see someone about that.
- “Ralf is full of hot air. I called him out.” Sure you did, LOL. Your Dark Triad traits are showing
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LOL
Thanks!
That’s exactly the reason this project has value.
JP Sour D is supposed to be LA Kush/Headband (notso cut), keywords “supposed to be.” Thank you for the suggestion; I will listen in the hopes notso cites his reason for making that claim.
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Notsodog said that phylos couldn’t even tell that a mother and daughter he submitted were related. That’s why I say DNA isn’t ready. I don’t know much more about it than that. Am I wrong?
You’re mistaken if you intended to imply that genome sequencing can’t identify plant (or human) genetic relatives. Just ask the Golden State Killer or the NY Times:
There could be any number of reasons why the test notso referred to failed to identify female progeny as related to the female parent. Including poor sampling by notso, poor lab testing, limits of Phylo’s equipment, protocols, etc.
Also, I just noticed that Medical Genomics Kannapedia compares their test results to Phylo’s regarding genetic relations. That’s great for this project because it leverages both datasets.
If I recall correctly I heard a podcast state that they are testing a narrow scope and the wrong scope. If I remember where I heard that I’ll send it to you. I thought it was well known that phylos is a joke?
I’m pretty sure it was chimera’s last episode of breeders syndicate
I have worked for an Amsterdam-cup winning breeder, and can confirm that the lineages he advertises are not the ones in the mix. Subterfuge abounds.
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Phylos only used SNP array for their customer genomic testing. That is a limited scope test and not suited for testing new cultivars. So, if notsodog sent in samples of a new cross, the issue could be attributed to “limits of Phylos’s equipment (and) protocols.” But I wouldn’t rule out poor sampling by notso as a contributing factor.
I wouldn’t say Phylos genome testing was a “joke.” But I would say it was too limited by not offering whole genome sequencing. Phylos’s testing scope was not suited for Notosodog’s goals, nor is SNP array testing suited for the Sour D project I’m trying to start. And, of course, Phylos is shady as hell and cannot be trusted.
I am not an expert on genome sequencing. I’m sure people on this site know more than I do about this topic, so I hope they chime in if so.
Medical Genomics offers shotgun DNA (whole genome) sequencing, targeted enrichment gene sequencing panel, and SNP array. The Sour D project requires whole genome sequencing at $1,500 per test. So, if I’m testing five different Sour D cuts, that’s $7,500. Hence, a GoFundMe is likely in my future.
In comparison, IIRC, LeafWorks offers whole genome sequencing at about $2,500 per test. I plan to contact LeafWorks to inqure if they do offer whole genome sequencing.
From Medical Genomics:
Also from Medical Genomics:
Blockchained Cannabis DNA White Paper
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I don’t think we can take Notso and Riot’s opinion as fact when it comes to East Coast strain history. Though they are certainly tied into things in the west, that doesn’t mean they have all the answers on the east coast history. I mean, even the east coast dudes have trouble with chem history, and they were the ones there.
Also when looking at Jay Plantspeaker’s garden, he’s running his sour d and Headband this year. So if they were the same cut, we should see the exact same flower structure and terp profile, right?
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Just because YOU don’t understand “sequence them all and let GOD** figure it out” doesn’t mean it’s not a valid route to knowledge.
It works, and works well…
@ralf gets that, and plans to leverage publicly available data along with sequence he’s paying for to sort this out.
No, talking to the OG’s won’t sort the history out, but it’s all there, written in T’s, A’s, C’s and G’s for those that understand how to read it…
** Gigs Of Data
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