Dont get me wrong. I personally like the owners and employees very much. Always quick to return a call
You being 2 hrs away from them will alleviate a lot of issues and down time.
I’ve never operated the Luna system, but damn is it rad looking. I’ve been searching for a GMP solution to hydrocarbon extraction and Luna is honestly the only one I can find. It’s disappointing to hear all of the troubles with the first dozen systems, because I cant in good confidence recommend the system to my company.
Do they have competition? Are there other systems that have been validated for use in a GMP environment? Will the system be improved and capable of running under the paremeters for fire concentrates?
2 Likes
I’ll keep you posted on my experience, i do not know any other hydrocarbons that fit the GMP bill as easily as a luna would.
2 Likes
The data was not useable at all for batch production records. We couldnt export data and there was no open api to have the parameters be logged into our QMS. Besides having some digital gauges I dont know what would make this any closer to gmp then any other system. It doesn’t have logic for every scenario and the viscosity meter doesn’t work unless you use 100% propane or 100% butane. Any mix and the ratio is thrown off enough to make the results not reputable using the viscosity meter. So many things in theory that sound good but dont work. I was team luna for 2 years until I found an investor to pony up the money and then got shat on by all the claims I told him based on what I was told. I hear the luna sits in the old lab I used to work with and the Bizzy bee they use runs when they have material. They didn’t have anyone on site qualified to even use the luna once our team left. Regular employees didn’t have the skill sets needed to constantly troubleshoot. IF you are not to big on quality then the luna should be great. Maybe they fixed a few things I see they changed the mole sieves orientation.
2 Likes
I’m sure they would sell it if they could.
Pretty Telling that it sits there.
You have not run it before?
I appreciate your experience @johnbigoilco and I look forward to your feedback @thesk8nmidget . My specific issue is that I am working with a company in Portugal for a pharma buildout, but with rec most likely happening we need an option for hydrocarbon extraction. It won’t need to be Pharma GMP, but at minimum Nutraceutical GMP. Of all the hydrocarbon system manufacturers Luna was the only one willing to go up to bat, and Precision was willing to explore it. I’ve ran Precisions systems before, but after the nightmare ASE-100 I don’t want to go there with any of their “new” equipment.
I’ll check out Luna at MJBizcon and I’ll follow the advice/experience from this community on how it performs.
4 Likes
Im sure they have improved, I just wouldn’t spend my money again. There chillers kick ass tho
3 Likes
Anything that can hit -106C is a beast in my eyes! I definitely can’t recommend dropping that kind of cash unless the system has been unanimously successful. Obviously, a good company will improve on their flaws, but the cannabis space is notorious for bad operators. @anon16547145, and many of us, have plenty of those nightmare companies we’ve worked with.
2 Likes
A great starting point would be to have them list it for sale… I searched for a used unit for a long time to cut down lead times and costs and came up finding not a single used unit that has ever been listed for sale, nothing, not a sold unit, not a for sale unit. that also could be “pretty telling” the other direction.
Have you ever seen a used luna for sale?
3 Likes
save all these arguments for the guys that bought this for you when it does what it does.
I’m sure they will love you reiterating the sales pitch to them while the spreadsheets say otherwise.
I wish you the best and have no dog in the fight. I hope it does everything you want and more.
Hello everybody & my apologies for not responding sooner, but I wanted to do some digging and fact checking before making any statement on Future4200.
So, to address some of the issues that have been promoted on this thread:
- “Had 5 Hamlet Valves break during commissioning.”
Valid statement. Looking at our support notes, we determined the valves were damaged during shipping/installation. To immediately remedy the issue, we shipped all parts overnight at our expense and had our Support Technician install them on-site.
We debrief every issue that arises during commissioning/installation. Our root-cause-analysis concluded that (at least some of) the valve failures were caused by the front and back half of the frame moving in relation to one another. The hardlines that spanned the front/back halves, put stress on the valves and damaged the ball seats. To fix this problem long-term we made two changes: (1) added flex lines to every tube spool that connects the front half to the back half and (2) added bolt-on thick wall steel fork tubes for transportation.
One other thing to note: we offer FREE on-site commissioning for all of our extraction equipment. Startup and commissioning ANY industrial equipment encounters issues. That’s why our Support team with over 40yrs of experience in cannabis and industrial processing equipment is available throughout the process. But, that is not an excuse for five valve failures. This was an unacceptable problem that we worked hard to ensure doesn’t happen again.
- “Could not achieve better yields than previous system without doing 4 cycles which ended in a 3-hour total run time.”
Our support documents show that the system was run at -80C which we do not recommend for maximizing yield. The colder you go, the higher the residence time or solvent ratio is necessary to achieve the same yield. There’s always a balance here with temperature/quality and yield/time. We currently don’t have any customers running four soaks (cycles) to achieve their desired yield. Typically, it’s a single soak for fresh frozen and single or double soak for dry biomass. We normally only see our customers’ recipes using 3 or 4 soaks for CBD extraction. We always encourage our customers to run a Design of Experiments to help optimize their extraction parameters (time, temp, soaks/batch).
- “The system was not designed for CRC.”
At that point in time a CRC was not a standard option. I don’t think any system at that time was designed for CRC. Adding powdered filter medias to any BHO extractor had a major effect on how you processed. For lots of equipment, CRC could not be added to the normal process at all. When you bought your machine we were in the design process of our CRC add-on which is available now. Our CRC system has been in use for some time now and 90% of our customers end up purchasing it to use in their process. Happy to hear any feedback on our current CRC system.
- “The Luna CRC is not a “real CRC”, just a 3" spool with a 5um filter gasket.”
The Luna CRC was developed for use with Media Bros Media. The Luna CRC houses the Color Remediation Media and allows for Color Remediation with minimal to no slowdown in run time.
Our CRC uses a 4in sintered disc filter (available in a few different micron sizes) with high pressure clamps. We’re open to any suggestions to making it a real CRC. We’re always open to feedback and improving our products. I think originally we sent out most CRC setups with a filter screen gasket but quickly added the sintered disc option and sent out a sintered disc free filter spool to everyone who purchased a CRC and wanted to switch from the filter gasket. If you guys didn’t receive one, I’m really sorry about that, we can definitely send you one!
- “To achieve marketed throughput, he would need to use hot butane with “stupid hot” recovery which equated to a 3% total yield. “
Our Support Techs recommended a -40F run. The definition of “hot” is highly subjective, but -40 being hot seems a little misleading. And a 3% yield on fresh frozen is a lower-end average range yield. I know you guys all know this but there is much more water weight in fresh frozen, which skews the yield. But the result will be a very high-quality product. Dry material runs will have much larger yields with a lower quality output. I’m not sure how hot your recovery is but we have data from hundreds of batches that show the recovery temperature typically starting around -20F and then increasing to +30F for most of the recovery, then at the tail end, climbing to +60F. If the extract is left in the collection vessel after solvent recovery, the residual heat in the vessel jacket can bring the temperature up to as high as +100F. But this can also be controlled and kept lower. We use a “high” temperature in the vessel jacket because a higher temperature delta makes for much better heat transfer which means a higher recovery rate. But the high temp of the vessel jacket does not mean that the recovery is happening at that temperature. We’re always happy to discuss the process with customers and make sure it works for them before they purchase equipment. We do not see any terpene loss during solvent recovery and so we’re very comfortable with our recovery temperature. There are a couple easy fixes that we can help you implement if you’d like to recover at a lower temperature. Just give us a call anytime and we can walk you through lowering the temperature of your hot water system. It’s also really quick (5mins) for us to change the recovery temp limits so you can recover at whatever temperature you’d like. One of the many reasons why automation is so great!
- “Had to customize the system to fill from the top and added a Nitrogen Assist to achieve 2x throughput.”
This one is tough for us. We really do not recommend doing this. Anytime you make a significant change to industrial equipment without consulting the manufacturer, you’re bound to run into issues. We do not think the nitrogen assist is necessary and have no other customers who do this. There are a number of problems with adding nitrogen to our process. BUT, the underlying issue that you solved with nitrogen assist is one that we have also solved without nitrogen. In a software update we added a High Pressure Soak option. We now have three available extraction methods: Static, Evaporative Cooling, and High Pressure. Each has its uses.
- “Data Capturing never worked.”
In my entire time working for the company, I have never heard this complaint. The trend analysis not only works but is easily transferable via USB into an Excel format for data review. We’re also about to release an update that can send daily emails with the data log files to any address. This is the first time we’ve heard of this issue and I’m really sorry that this is your experience! Give us a call anytime and we can walk you through exporting data logs in 5-10mins. It’s really easy. I believe it’s also described in your Operating Manual but I could be wrong as the older revision didn’t include instructions for data dumps. If you plug in a USB drive right now, it will automatically capture data without any input, so probably best to do that ASAP so you don’t miss any more data.
- “Cannot control chillers at panel.”
Yep this one is on us. We had an issue with a few of the chiller HMIs which create problems with communications back to our control panel. The problem has been fixed permanently on new units AND we have a fix for your system. It will take some time (possibly 1-2 hours) on the phone with our Support Techs to get you sorted out on this. But again, just bring up these issues to our support team and they’ll get it fixed. Here’s the chiller control interface that’s on our main control panel currently:
- “PLC was wired incorrectly.”
I need to push back a little here. Our panels are all tested and certified operational before shipment. Historical records on from our Support Team indicate that there was a problem created when your electrician wired the panel incorrectly. Again, not a big deal as this kind of thing comes up on ALL industrial equipment installations across every industry. That’s why we go through a pre-commissioning checklist with customers to catch these issues early and then go on site to help solve anything that comes up during startup.
- “Issues with level sensors and nearly all 24v controls.” -
Our support techs are available to help solve any 24V controls issues you’re experiencing. We don’t have any record of on-going problems, though.
The sensors issue I’m seeing in our support ticket database is related to loss of signal from sensors on one of the solvent tanks. We determined that this was due to a wiring loom being cut by a sharp blade at some point during operation. (See pictures below).
- “Cannot fit more than 12 Lbs. of trim in reactor vessel without significant yield loss.”
Can fit up to 18 lbs dry trim, 30 lbs fresh frozen at maximum capacity. You may see yield loss if you always pack to the brim. But we have now released a “pressurized soak” software update that will pressurize the reactor vessel to allow for better penetration of the biomass which equates to better yields. Software updates not only come with our newest units but are always available to update all previously purchased skids in the Luna family.
Also, different biomass has different packing density. If you’re packing ground biomass (which we don’t recommend) you can probably fit closer to 25lbs dry. Other biomass will only pack 13-14lbs. It all depends on what’s in the composition.
- Amount of time spent on the phone trying to fix stuff only Luna can control on the back end was frustrating.
Valid. There were an abnormal number of issues on your buildout for various reasons. Some of the issues, such as the Hamlet valves, were on us. Some, we think, were unavoidable on our part. We recognize you may have spent quite a bit of time with Technical Support getting everything organized and operational. We try extremely hard to listen to our customers and constantly improve our extraction systems. We are always available to help customers succeed and we regularly go out of our way to do so. Our success is dependent on our customers’ success. The whole company works hard every day to make sure our customers can make the best possible extracts.
- Data not useable for batch production records.
See my response above but this just isn’t the case. All of our systems are capable of data logging and exporting to a usable format. Get in touch and we can walk you through how to do it in 5mins!
- Could not export the data.
Like I mentioned above, data logs can be exported to USB and we’re about to release an update so they can be emailed straight from our control panel (automatically).
- Viscosity meter only works with 100% Butane or Propane.
The viscosity selector works with 100 butane, 70/30 butane/propane, 30/70 butane propane, and 100 propane. We can (and do) customer program for different solvent ratios. Many of our customers use a 70:30 Butane: Propane mix. We dial in and calibrate the viscosity formula custom to every build based on their requirements. Below is a pic taken from the system you operated that shows it was set up to run a 30:70 blend of Propane: Butane.
- Regular employees do not have the skillset to troubleshoot.
In many cases, this is true. But again, this is also true for almost all industries that use industrial equipment. Customer Support is always available if an employee is not sure of something. We always recommend that operators are taught basic troubleshooting. But advanced troubleshooting should be left to more qualified employees. BHO extraction can be dangerous if untrained/qualified people work on the equipment.
- The Luna IO skid has never changed. Same skid from #3 to now.
This isn’t true. We are currently on Rev. 6. Our support and engineering staff meet weekly to discuss new design iteration ideas.
It is certainly disappointing to hear that you had such a negative experience with the Luna IO you were operating. We at Luna admit that there were some kinks in the early systems that we had to work through. We had a brand-new product that the world had never seen. But now, after producing dozens of these systems, we are confident in our ability to put out a high-quality product. Does this mean that we do not have room for improvement? No, not at all. We are constantly looking at the data we receive and making decisions to improve efficiency and effectiveness of our equipment. We did not put out a product for it to remain stagnant. We want to put out the best equipment and we want to make that equipment better in any way we can.
So, I assure anyone reading this response that the true proof is in the pudding. We have dozens of these skids in the world and the reason you are not hearing anything from anyone actively operating a Luna IO is because they are too busy cranking out oil and dominating their market. The Luna IO Fully Automated Extraction System works awesome now and will only get better with age as we continue to research and develop new capabilities to add to our hardware and software.
Please keep this in mind as well: If anyone is interested in our equipment and wants to come out and tour our facility, we will gladly show you where we fabricate these systems in Portland, Oregon and introduce you to some of our customers. You can talk to them in person and see these labs firsthand and make your own decision about our equipment and our company with your own eyes.
Feel free to reach out to me directly if you have any further questions or comments.
18 Likes
Luna IO on the right
Luna Oberon is on the left
The Oberon was just put in place yesterday and nothing has been hooked up.
Figured I would update this thread with a quick update. We have gotten our IO up and running, we had some slight issues starting off but after about a week (during thanksgiving holiday break) luna helped us trouble shoot the issues we were having and got our system dialed in and we ran through 600 more pounds of fresh frozen in about 3 days, not trying or pushing very hard.
The repeatability is great and the ease of use is awesome! Very easy to train people to run and my favorite part is you only need to be in the room for about 5 minutes every hour to swap material bags and do a pour.
The IO we have is the first of their newest revisions and there were a couple issues that came up during start up but that’s usually expected with any system commissioning. We are also running a different set of chillers and a different hot water circulator than Luna has ever used before so considering this was all new for them I’m pretty happy with the time it took to get up and running.
10 Likes
Don’t you think that’s an awful lot of money to extract 200lbs fresh frozen in a day?
I know people extracting with under 20k extractors hitting those kinda numbers. Plus the buildout….
Did you get a buy one get one free deal or did you have to pay for both extractors?
6 Likes
Are you using their crc as that was what slowed our system down to a creep. I wish you the best of luck. At the end of the day they package everything together nicely and it will cruise at 200 lbs of fresh frozen per day.
2 Likes
That’s per 8 hour shift not per day. I also didnt have the chillers scheduled to auto start so that includes the time it takes the chillers to get to temp.
I dont think that is a lot of money when you think about repeatability and the automation side of it. I NEVER have to rely on a highly paid operator to show up to work and babysit the system and run it manually all day every day. Those techs cost a lot of money and usually come with a bit of baggage, and it would be a better choice to have a competent tech that can babysit a machine for 5 minutes and when they have a medical emergency (happened last week) I can have someone else step in (this time it was myself) and repeat the exact same runs they have been doing with a push of a button. I can literally step in and run the system with 5 minutes of work every hour and continue to manage the lab. THAT’S HUGE for a lab that has a business plan of automation and minimal labor costs.
And when it comes to starting a second or third shift there is no need to find that hard to find talent. Try adding second or third shifts to a manual hydrocarbon operation and let me know how well they keep their products consistency from shift to shift.
Yeah, different market, less regulation, and more driven single operator operations. This is in a regulated market with a big focus on safety and long term success. I’m stoked for those guys running that much in a day but its not my game to play at this point in my life.
No, I didnt pay for the second system I partnered with Luna to help them do the R&D on the new skid and if i decide to upgrade to the new system they are going to take care of me.
9 Likes
Not a ton of time running crc yet but will keep you posted on the results, what media were you using? I can definitely see where the times would drop when using more traditional powders vs granular medias.
2 Likes
we were using their crx media as anything else required n2 and they were not cool with allowing that. We had some runs that required 4kg of media for the 25-30 lbs of fresh frozen we were running each run. In the end I swiped the system to inject from the top, removed the soak all together, and used a 5:1 solvent ratio on fresh frozen and ended up still using n2 to help push. The most we ever ran In a 24hr period was 335lbs of fresh frozen with this set up. Using any of the preset and recipes we were having to do 4 runs on one batch of material to get equivalent yields to our previous equipment so we found just pushing from the top and running all the solvent at once worked really well. The system recovered solvent so fast that we rarely had any issues putting in to much solvent. I wish the vapor line coming off the top of the distilation pot was Taller and possibly even had a something to reflux any carryover rather then getting it clogged in the line.
6 Likes
Looks nice. Hope it runs well for you!
Seems like a ton of money to spend when the customer is paying the company for equipment to do very basic R&D for the company that makes the equipment. That wasn’t included in their sales pitch though, at least when I chatted with 'em.
1 Like