Hi I have been formulating a recipe for cbd and thc drinks. I have 2 problems so far one with filtration. Using .22nm filter. The other is the main problem. The milky white solution the sonicator produces once a carrier oil is introduced. So far I have had translucent emulsions using quillaja from Q-naturale alone mixed with 95% pure distillate. Once carrier oil (mct or olive oil) is introduced to the formula the solution becomes milk and does not become transparent after sonication. Leading to filtration problems and possible loss of active ingrediant. Im on the edge of going with Ugoo from axiomm or another “turnkey” precursor solution to translucent nano emulsions. Im interested in basically just starting this thread to promote more knowledge on the subject of nano emulsions with cbd and thc as this is in a frontier in the industry. I am using an FS-600n homogenizer/ sonicator. Cheap but was hoping for it to be able to get the job done. So far I have great reviews on drinks made with quillaja and distillate. Although I need a carrier oil to make the Micelle complete and absorbing of active ingrediant better. Im still understanding the HLB system so any tips or help there would be great. Im more a home school’d basement chemist lol. Im lead to believe all the SUPER expensive pre mixes for clear nano emulsions are basically coconut oil, surfactant, preservative. I hope this post promotes discussion about recipes and knowledge on sonication and emulsions. I have read all there is to on this site about it and google and need more. I have a bunch of things to work with but was hoping for a natural concentrated solution to add to beverages. I also have things like Polysorbate 80, lecithin, bitter blockers etc. What has worked for you if you are in the drink game and what has failed? Translucent nano emusions are turning out to be harder than expected, your info or knowledge is greatly appreciated as I have invested a bit into this project so far. Thanks!
Why are you making an emulsion then adding it to a carrier oil that doesn’t need an emulsion?
Idea is to add it to a water-based beverage or spray. If you’re just going to add it back to MCT oil or ethanol there’s no point in emulsifying it.
I think they mean they’re using a carrier oil for emulsifying, like dissolve distillate in MCT/olive oil and then sonicate with surfactant. This should produce a smaller particle size and also affects absorption.
I’d recommend looking into sucrose monopalmitate (look for a high monoester content to improve clarity) and vitamin-e TPGS.
I use distillate +(ethanol mct oil mix) to liquidate the thc (hot of course) then i mix with liquid sunflower sunflower lecithin to make a slurry… finally i add the hot slurry to my corn syrup or honey or aguave… i make syrups that create colloids in liquids like soda and juice or tea… once they go colloids it becomes milky as you describe. So i think we are running into a similar problem… maybe you are creating a colloid with your mixing? I would try different sop for your nano emulsion or heck maybe try turning your sonicator down… how low does your horn get?
@stoopkid … What @munkdooligan said is what im doing. Just can’t get it to be translucent if any carrier oil is used. When carrier oil is used it turns to milk. That indicates the particle size of the oil droplets are too big. Im trying to see if anyone has recipes that work or if someone knows exactly parts of what is in “turnkey” precursors sold like Ugoo. Google it if you haven’t heard of it.
How much needs to be dissolved ??
How many mg to say 100ml
Here is a pic of a nano emulsions using only Q-naturale, distillate and water . I had good reviews from those who tried it. It was 100mg in every 10ml of solution. Im thinking if I can get the emulsion to be translucent with a carrier oil, it will absorb better and have better effects. Any tips or info would be great. I ran multiple experiments last night and all came out milky once sonicated. One formula i sonicated for 1hr in hopes to obtain smaller particle size through time of sonication but nothing changed sadly.
I misunderstood what you were making. I thought you were just making a tincture dissolved in MCT, no water based component. Which obviously wouldn’t have needed an emulsifier.
In which case I’d second rogue’s question. What’s your target mg per 100ML? Cyclodextrins are good for low mg and pretty easy on the GI tract.
Alternatively, sucrose esters are one route I’m exploring lately that would be quite promising. Using less “carrier oil,” sucrose esters will essentially function like a fatty acid with a polar end. Sucrose palmitate is probably going to be the most commercially available but if you dive into some of the other fatty acid esters there’s some very promising tech. Just make sure if you’re producing this for a company to cross reference what you use on Google first because you’re venturing into big pharma patent territory. They might not play nicely in a couple years.
How’s your stability when not using any carrier? That just looks like a solution of q-naturale. Q-naturale usually doesn’t produce translucent emulsions. I’d be curious how much oil you’re actually getting in there, which may be what you’re attributing to poor absorption.
@stoopkid Even with sucrose esters you usually have to use additional oil to mitigate Ostwald ripening at the low surfactant levels used to make a nanoemulsion. The manufacturer I got my SMP from recommended it as did ingredion. It’s even in their example formulas.
Edit: while the concentrated emulsion with q-naturale may be milky, it can be used to make “clear beverages” when diluted.
drink-up: your terminology is vague to say the least:
“translucent nano emulsions.”
can you explain the actual chemistry you are trying to achieve?
Then we can address how light may or may not be scattered…i.e.,
the physics of a milky fluid.
Does it bother you that Milk is White?
Rule of thumb: Cannabinoid plus H20 at neurtral pH think micelle.
now intergrate the micelle concept into your ideas about what you think you are doing.
give Jason a call at Udoxi.
Translucent nanoemulsion is a commonly used term in the beverage/supplements industries and academic journals. Light scattering accounts for why some very fine emulsions are still opaque, but very fine emulsions are almost always translucent to transparent. Some emulsifiers just don’t form translucent emulsions regardless of energy input. Critical micelle concentration and molecular orientation all play a role in surfactant selection.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/pharmacology-toxicology-and-pharmaceutical-science/nanoemulsion
Kind of bold to assume that everything sonicated will turn translucent. Why don’t you sonicate one on its own and see where it takes you, I don’t see why you would need anything beyond the carrier and cannabinoids to sonicate(what I’m trying to say is I don’t think you can add something that’ll dilute it enough to be transparent)
If you are using the same water filter for oils of course your going to have a bad time. Those filters are made specifically for oil IN water applications(emulsions) Do a little research on membranes and you might one specifically for oils. I found the mfg of one and they carry like 8 different materials all modified in a different manner with only 3 being predominate solutions for oil in water emulsions.
I can confidently say you can go to .45 micron with no issues of titanium getting thru if everything’s already sterilized/clean of course.
I have read that someone said it was due to oxidation but I can’t argue the validity of that considering my/most commercial loops are done thru a peristaltic pump not being introduced to much oxygen. Maybe it degrades so quickly with sonication that , that minimal amount does affect it. Use some inert gasses to find out.
Drinks: thank you for your reply with reference to what you are trying to achieve. Quote from the review reference you supplied:
“4.3 Nanoemulsion
Nanoemulsions are part colloidal dispersions of two immiscible liquids. Although some lyotropic liquid crystalline phases, also known as “micellar phases,” “mesophases,” and “microemulsions,” may appear to be similar to nanoemulsions in composition and nanoscale structure, such phases are actually quite different [39]. Core of the nanoemulsion occupied a relatively high percentage of total particle volume. Nanoemulsions are composed of oil droplets dispersed in an aqueous medium and stabilized by surfactant molecules. Nanoemulsions are thermodynamically stable transparent or translucent nanosized dispersions of oil in water (o/w) or water in oil (w/o) stabilized by an interfacial film of surfactant and cosurfactant molecule having the droplet size 10–100 nm [40].”
If we are to assume this is a universally accepted notion/definition,
we now assume your are asking questions in that defined “”. Thank you it clarifies some rather vague notions.
So you want “oil droplets dispersed in an aqueous medium and stabilized by surfactant molecules” that are restricted to the 10-100 nm
particle size range.
So in these regards 1.) what is your oil
2.) what is your aqueous medium (buffer?)
3.) what is your interfacial surfactant.
Then what is your energy input system? I assume a 30-50K psi
pump and nozzle type homogenizer or ultrasound.
What method are you using to to measure your particle size distribution?
What nano-sizes have you determined satisfy your translucent criteria.
Simply put what are you shooting for? What are you shooting with?
How do you know when you are on target?
Using your components, do you have a model of what the molecular structure of the nano emulsion might look like? I am curious.
Now can you make this “nano-emulsion” without cannabinoid?
Or is cannabinoid one of the two non aqueous, essential- components noted above?
Then for the final criteria…“thermodynamic stability”.
How do you assess this value?
With the appropiate model we might discuss any one of these attributes.
And it may well be a very interesting discussion.
Is your intended product a topical applied drug? It it something to eat or drink?
Can you be very specific concerning which cannabinoid you are working with and the purity. Anything aqueous…CBD and THC are two separate
subjects.
I think a rational discussion on this board encompassing solutions of micelles and nanoemulsions of cannabinoids would be appreciated by a number of readers.
further review: Nanoemulsion: an advanced mode of drug delivery system - PMC.
what causes translucency in this case is not the act of diluting the solution with other ingredients to the point that the opaique oils become saturated to the point that they appear clear to the eye, it’s the act of the mechanical energy dispersing the particle sizes of the botanical oils so small, to the point that they do not reflect light and in consequence then appear somewhat translucent x clear. i think the question that @Drinks is asking is a great one and one that really opens up this board for helpful information a lot of people here could use. @Drinks it might be that the answer to your question may lay in the formulation of the surfactant blend you are using and or the equipment being used. i’d order a sample of a popular preblended surfactant that is known for translucent nanoemulsions and see if this solves your problem. follow the instructions to the T and see if this achieves a clear final product. if it does, then work on your own blend a little and ask the company for an ingredient list. if you do not achieve a clear emulsion with one of the popular surfactant mixes being sold, id experiment with other triglycerides. @Drinks great question, i promise you there are a lot of lurkers who do not post reading this thread needing this same information. Blockquote
You are aware what predominately helps with translucency is the fact that the carrier liquid - water - is clear. When you encapsulate a small amount of cannabinoids(in relation to volume of water) and likely 20% weight of the emulsifier used to encapsulate. You have a very minimal amount of colored product to begin with, on top of this the color is being dispersed(diluted) in the mass on water when you make an oil IN water emulsion.
Now if you start with a COLORED OIL, of course the transparency won’t be the same. If you believe breaking something pigmented into smaller pieces renders it pigmentless well I’d say thats quite the theory…
We add a minimal amount of glycerine to our water nano product and even at minimal volumes it darkens the product, and thats with a clear liquid.
Encapsulated water is milky white. Turning something white - clear is a reasonable (as the pigment is incredibly minimal) you are aware coconut oil is scrubbed and we learned a lot about CRC from the vegetable industry? Even after all that processing the product is still colored using media to strip color. Why would sonication(as many weird things as it does) be the factor to make it pigmentless/translucent?
I have more to ellabroate on the second half but I’ll digress
canna/og…great comments…I’ll try to figure out the heart thing?
Perhaps, a primary restriction to a subject where we are discussing
a “continous aqueous phase” containing 50nm or less diameter oil droplets as a starting point. Are all “oils” equal or do we need some sort of structured “oils” . what is preferred in the “beverage” industry as primary elements. And what is best way to impart the energy to get there?
has a good discussion and some basic SOPs, but I wouldn’t wander too far…you might end up “white”.
It seems that cannabinoid nanoemulsions are very little cannabinoid.
What is the loading level where every thing breaks down?
If you need a consult…call Jason, Udoxi
he has been working on them for about five years.
Let me just save you some time. Quillaja does not produce translucent nanoemulsions. Change your emulsifier.
First pic is a nanoemulsion I made with sucrose monopalmitate. I think this was 50 mg/mL. Almost a clear solution, but that’s concentrated emulsion:
Video is what q-naturale SHOULD look like when properly emulsified. Notice how it is milky, but looks translucent when added to water:
If you really care about appearance, you need to choose a surfactant + carrier oil (this is for stability and absorption) that can produce sufficiently small particles. It comes down to chemistry, energy input via different processing techniques will only get you so far. Nanoemulsions, even under 100nm, can still be milky in appearance, so really not the best way to gauge success.
Just an overview here.
Cannabinoids do not mix easily with water at neutral pH.
Usually we want to mix cannabinoids in aqueous solution
for someone to drink/food product application.
(business decision?) correct?
Clarity of solution is a qualitative property of the solution,
a clear solution “may” sell better than an opaque one…??
but this is dependent on consumer expectation.
As noted in my previous remark…“what is wrong with white milk?” It sells and customers expect it to be white.
So the whole " translucent Nanoemulsion" subject is somewhat to do with “qualitative sales apperance.”
Also we must consider absorbtion physiology which may well be enchanced by the structure of the nanoparticle. This subject is by far more important than the detail of appearance. Nanoemulsion/human absorbtion should be a separate discussion. Every human gut is somewhat engineered to absorb emulsions of fats in very effective ways…we are mammals designed to be milk drinkers. The subject of micron/submicron milk emulsion is complex…see diagram below.
Speaking about expectations and cannabinoid emulsions which are readily taken up by the lipid lymphatic pathway: BHANG
This is solution to the problem of getting
cannabinoids into an aqueous based, emulsion-phase and also in the presence of enough lipid/fat to activate the lipid lymphatic absorption pathway.
If you take the time to really think the receipe through…
you extract the cannabinoids with an emulsion of
raw milk (aka whole milk).
This is a “hack” of a known system designed by evolution
to get fat into a human’s blood stream.
So basically if you want to be so f…ked up you can not get off the floor, take 100-200mg of Distilled THC product, add it to cup warm whole milk , sweeten it a bit some honey/maple syrup…down it.
This is a 3000 year old solution, it is not clear, not translucent,
not nano-technolgy produced by high pressure jets or ultrasound…but it has the micro- encapsulated THC and butter fat content to turn on all the right systems for effective absorbtion into the blood stream. You just need bud, a goat, a clay pot and some burning charcoal.
Today there is a tremendous field of nanotechnology and it has solution applications to production of encapsulated drugs including cannabinoids.
I think it is the future…but the entire focus on “clear and translucent” seems a bit “WEEDO” .
See diagram below for some submicron and micron aspects of whole white-milk.
I recently purchased an Industrial Sonomechanics turnkey system with two products in mind:
-Translucent nanoemulsions for CBD beverages
-Water “soluble” CBD powder (see attached photo produced in a trial run)
We plan on using the company provided NanoStabilizer formulation to start with, but then playing around with our own Q-Naturale based formulation to cut cost. Bhang sounds awesome but keep in mind one of the main reasons for nanoemulsion is to greatly increase the bioavailability of the cannabinoids. I have read articles that explain the effect of droplet size and carrier oil formulation on absorption kinetics. Of course clarity and stability are important considerations when preparing CBD-water or other clear beverages.
Does anyone have experience taking a nanoemulsions to a powder? In our trial run it was produced using a proprietary mix with bitter blocker (tasted sweet actually). I expect a spray dryer was involved but they claim it can be done in a vacuum oven.
Also has anyone done droplet size testing on their own nanoemulsions? If so what equipment do you use?
Attached is an interesting, detailed article discussing formulation optimization for either a Q-Naturale or a Tween 80/Span 80 formulation. The Tween 80/Span 80 formulation was capable of considerably smaller droplet size. The best carrier oils have high long-chain triglyceride content, such as olive oil or sesame oil.
cannabis extract nanoemulsions.pdf (1.9 MB)