It all depends what methods they are using and what type of technology. I have mass spectrometers that can detect dioxin at 1 ppt accurately all day long. The instrument is over $1M but worth every penny.
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Absolutely but you are more or less the exception to the rule. Most cannabis/hemp testing labs are much less equipped to test outside of standard requirements.
I agree that āproductionā fast testing methods, like TCLP testing for example, are engineered for extremely fast results and while on paper provide āaccurateā testing, in reality they do not and are specifically engineered to allow industry to operate with minimal costs and good product, and or marginal product to be accepted. In all cases, the methods are void of testing for toxic byproducts.
Our method requires over 2 hours, a 300 foot column, and a method of ramping the inlet and oven temperature combined with a Deans switch. We are able to separate and identify and quantify every compound in a matrix (within reason). While this canāt be used for batch production ā although we do, it should have been done on at least the first batch to prove the product is safe.
Any analysis at a scale like this proves the D8 products in question are illegal and toxic.
We will be releasing batches of D8 products results. I have yet to find ONE that passes legally. This will not bode well for the resellers and labs as they are responsible for poisoning people. Itās going to be ugly soon. Weād love to release the first batch today but we are giving law enforcement and every 3-letter agency an opportunity to collect their own samples in the wild so that the evidence is overwhelming and sound.
DISCLOSURE: We do not, have not, nor have any investment in D8, D9 or any psychoactive product. We refuse to be involved in the D8 or D9 industry. We do not produce any D8 or D9 products. We are doing this at no cost and are not funded by any competitors or resellers. We spent years in our past carriers pushing for and researching good medicinal uses for hemp and marijuana. We are here solely to independently test products acquired in the wild and report the results.
We do have one prediction: based on the results we have completed to date, someone is going to have to build a jail to house all of the offenders. This conduct is more widespread than the vitamin E fiasco a year or so ago involving multiple facilities, labs, distributors and resellers, and private labels.
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Thank you for the in depth reply. You always have great insight and are clearly involved with some exciting (even if its not the best for the industry) projects and Iām thankful for people like you and your team.
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The ability to make this is cool.
Letās talk about the ability to sell it.
Unless you are in a state which metrc rules allow the sale of hemp to rec mj stores you are ass out of luck unless you want to do the opposite of back dooring legal product Into the black market where you would be taking non metrc tracked plants and putting the product into the rec system.
The minute anyone in any state senses that some hemp farm is going to devalue their weed they will put up a big stink and form a coalition and get lawyers and lobbyists to pressure a rule change.
Rec mj is heavily taxed and benefits the state to the tune of many millions a year. Lowering the value of that tax base wonāt be allowed for long.
In California you can grow as much metrc weed as you can in a field of hemp anyways so thatās kind of a moot point for an industry at hemp scale anyways.
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Curiousā¦
Are the ād8 productsā or byproducts known toxins? Or unknown with the potential for toxicity?
Toxic, regulated, OSHA limits, not GRAS, and banned in many cases.
For example, FDA banned all phthalates in food product packaging. It was never allowed in foods. Itās in D8 byproducts.
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well Iām intrigued
None of these occur naturally in cannabis?
Hell no.
I posted on another thread I was unable to find these compounds in any extract: ethanol, Co2, etc.
You will find these byproducts in:
coal tar
petroleum cracking
hazardous waste
chinese glue used in some packaging
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Does the total thc include the d8? Cuz any conversion over 85% d9 and above 95% tac is impressive
Wild.
Where do they show up on a chromatograph? Curious if chromatography or distillation would remediate anything.
Following that thoughtā¦ Do conditions that could create d8 create these byproducts? I.e. any pH tuned clays and other CRC products? Or even a low pH wash in an LLE system?
Finallyā¦ Does this happen with all solvent/catalyst systems? Do you have any data? If weāre talking about real toxins here, some specifics would be amazing.
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I know the people that made this. They got it tested at a lab on fresh standards and realistically itās under estimating the delta 9. Iāve smoked it, it hits you just like regular d9 distillate. Iāve alluded to this in previous posts. This sop has been refined over time and was not easy to come by.
In our method, which is over 2 hours on a 100M column for excellent separation they appear from 40 minutes to 100 minutes.
We see that good lab practices eliminate the phthalates and some of the Cresol. If any oxygen is allowed in the reaction many bad actors are created.
Short path distillation will not remove the Olivetol.
Iāve provided these in other posts with specific examples.
I donāt not know if this happens with all solvents and catalysts however we havenāt found one compliant sample yet which speaks volumes.
It is possible to make a clean D8 under the following conditions:
A solvent and Lewis acid selected to reduce byproducts.
Operating conditions optimized for byproduct reduction.
A few additives we determined back 30+ years ago that greatly reduced byproducts.
We have developed a way to remove the Olivetol however I donāt wish to post it because if it is done improperly, and based on what I seeing in this industry it will be done improperly by many, will create even more toxic products.
Full chromatography with distillation.
Spinning band would go a long way here too.
The reactions must be conducted in properly sealed glass reactors with an inert gas (amazon junk doesnāt qualify).
The solvents and reagents should all be high purity.
This doesnāt solve your D9 compliance problem but there are a few simple methods to remove it.
All of these issues are dealt with using a CO2 distillation set up but that is expensive and Iām no fan of CO2.
All in, a facility with competent researchers and a sophisticated analytical lab could knock out a production set up and monitor the output without problems. Unfortunately, everyone is looking for the fast buck.
These steps would raise the price of ācompliantā D8 without toxic products to likely $4k/kg.
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I guess a more pointed question is: since d9 is an intermediate between d8, are you also seeing this in d9 reactions? Or is this mostly just these ālegalā d8 brands youāre focusing on?
Do you see these same problematic compounds in any d9 primary product with trace d8? Or with anything thatās used any kind of clays or pH altered mediaās (as any acid creates minute d8)? Or is that just not the focus of your research?
The focus of our research at this time is any and all D8 products. We are now testing dispensary expensive high end products to see if they are any better. They charge north of $60/cart so I would expect a very clean product. I just received them from one of our team members who was travelling and purchased a few.
We are testing gummies, vapes and all other D8 products. Weāve received leads on bad products in C-stores, smoke shops and other outlets.
Iāll make it a point to test some high end D9 carts if you would like.
To our internal group, D8 was always garbage. Who would want to smoke it? Itās sad some companies are selling this junk cheap in low-end outlets.
If D9 was synthetic, then Iād likely see it there too. Iāll test some and report back.
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Thanks for the in depth reply. I appreciate you taking the time 
I guess it would be pretty unlikely for you to be able to identify the solvent & catalyst systems used as wellā¦ Although Iām guessing thereās a high prevalence of PTSA
Solvents are easy to detect because the D8 semisynthesis is being done so badly by those who use low-purity solvents. The poor solvents have a number of persistent byproducts of their own.
We also see in some cases the solvent does react with some of the byproducts to create new byproducts when under high heat and extended reaction periods. It gives us a good view of what they are doing.
Iām surprised at the number of D8 products that would be comparable to making meth in a Walmart parking lot in a pop bottle.
Walmart pop bottle one-pot D8 synthesis. An interesting worst product award ideaā¦
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Are you noticing more issues with alcohol or alkane based rxns?
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Pardon perhaps the ignorant question, if youāre doing proper chromatography, why is distillation still necessary?
Anytime you have a lot of byproducts itās best to use a method that would eliminate many of them at an inexpensive cost.
Doing distillation first would eliminate a lot of the material going into the column and hence allow you to process more crude. It would also greatly reduce the number of fractions youād have to process out.
As well, you could use spinning band which would take out most of them.
If I can get a cleaner product prior to an intense purification then Iām better off and my chormatography work will be reduced with the ability to load more. I hope this helps.
Edit: Itās always best to limit byproduct synthesis by using pure solvents, pure reagents, and process conditions to eliminate byrpoducts to begin with. Itās a pay me now or pay me later situation.
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