Loudandclearlabs once commented about adding 2% sodium sulfate when winterizing to help with oxidation. Can anyone explain the science behind this and any possible health risks it might present?
1 Like
Maybe @Photon_noir has some insight, however keep in mind that Vic often puts things on IG to get people to go the wrong direction…
3 Likes
That’s a good point, it sounded like an informational post tho.
sulphate or sulphite? sulphites are another thing you come across in brewing and it scavenges free oxygen but i would take future seriously cause even if adding sulfur compounds worked effectively do u really wanna be adding sulfur to something you might smoke.
" From the boiler-related source listed below, it appears that it would require ~33% more sodium sulfite than sodium metabisulfite to scavenge the same amount of oxygen. How this factors into the flavor of the finished beer, or potential for sulfury results, I don’t have any idea. It’s not quite as readily available as SMB is, but it does appear to be available."
1 Like
Sodium sulfate, not sulfite, supposedly has some antioxidant activity, but I’m not sure of the mechanism. Mostly, it is a desiccant.
sodium sulfate is used in winterization to prevent oxidation or is it used as a dessicant?
What health concerns are associated with its use? I was told it could leave behind sulfates that are harmful to the body.
@Plant2pipe @Montanadabman If used properly, there is no reason to expect sodium sulfate would do any harm to your product or its users. It is a mild antioxidant for reaction purposes, but mostly it is a desiccant. It is not used in Winterization. The only place I have recommended its use is a small amount in the distillation boiling flask with the distilland, but it probably doesn’t do much in that situation. It was only recommended as an adjunct to MgO in the flask, to eliminate free water, but the temperature and vacuum alone can do most of that work.
1 Like
ic i thought u were talking about dry desiccant lik in a vacuum desiccator, using it in situ during a distillation makes more sense cause it serves double function.
Thank you for your time, just so I understand correctly you add it during distillation with MgO to help but it’s not needed and it doesn’t have many antioxidant properties in that use? Again, thank you for all your time and knowledge!
Anhydrous sodium sulfate does work as a desiccant in a desiccator, too. It is similar to Dri-Rite, which is anhydrous magnesium sulfate, probably the most common laboratory desiccant used in desiccators. The magnesium salt can accept up to 7 waters of hydration (magnesium sulfate • heptahydrate) while the sodium salt can accept up to 10 (sodium sulfate • decahydrate). Neither are deliquescent (self-dissolving by hygroscopy, like calcium chloride, for example), so they both work as solution desiccants as well as air desiccants. Just fyi, Dri-Rite comes in a moisture-indicating variety (some or all of the lumps have cobalt chloride in them, similar to some silica gel beads, making them blue when dry and pink when wet), which is NOT recommended for use in solutions.
3 Likes
Is there a reason not to use zeolite sieves or to use these over sieves? and what about metal chelators? ive read they’re used also sometimes in the same manner
i wouldn’t put indicator in solution or probably even dry-rite in general
@Montanadabman @Plant2pipe Correct. Anhydrous sodium sulfate is not required, just as MgO is not required, but it can have some beneficial effects and it has no obvious or known deleterious effects in this application that I can see. Anhydrous sodium sulfate is an additive used in some solution-based chemistry for these same purposes, though it is most often applied as a solvent desiccant for drying solvents prior to water-sensitive reactions.
Did you know: Cannabinoid acids seem to decarboxylate at thermal energies lower than what scientists expect the heat-only elimination of CO2 to require? According to some of the mechanisms of cannabinoid acid decarboxylation that have been proposed to explain this relatively low-temperature behavior, the decarboxylation reaction may include external species that stoichiometrically result in the production of water molecules along with the carbon dioxide.
Even if its antioxidant properties are minimal or non-existent, the presence of anhydrous sodium sulfate in the distilland could benefit/protect your distillates as a sort of temporary water sequestrant so that any water present has less chance to react with the MgO, create acidic/caustic conditions, or otherwise allow ionization of species (ergo: water reaction chemistry) in situ before the water molecules evaporate from the heat and vacuum… which they will do eventually at cannabinoid distillation temperatures, even if initially bound in the salt:hydrate complex. I especially recommend its use along with MgO, since MgO must remain anhydrous to deliver its beneficial catalysis of decarboxylation.
As a chemist looking at our current problems of thermal decomposition of cannabinoids during distillation and the properties of these compounds, I am offering sodium sulfate as a probable beneficent species with no, as yet, apparent detrimental effects.
Please understand that in NO way am I suggesting the use of sodium sulfite or metabisulfite or anything other than anhydrous sodium sulfate. Use at your own risk, of course, but I am saying there appears to be no risk in using it this way. 
3 Likes
@Plant2pipe YES! There are definitely reasons NOT to use zeolites and numerous other compounds in the presence of hot cannabinoids! Zeolites, acids, activated charcoal and other metamaterials and compounds can act as catalysts for unwanted isomerization, decomposition, and other undesireable reactions in the cannabinoids. Granted, sometimes we want to isomerize, in which cases, these can be useful. Otherwise you should avoid them.
thats what im asking arent metal chelating agents used to chelate the metals that r the catalyst that r present, therefore minimizing catalytic oxidation.
im familiar with chemically drying solvents using the methods ur talking about and mechanical drying them using sieves prior and during distillation and do know when u want to get cbd to isomerize u use zeolite and metal ions like zinc chloride but do the zeolite act as a catalyst itself or just as a sight for the reaction to happen?
Depends on the zeolite, naturally. As you know, there are numerous different zeolites, both naturally occurring and synthetic. As far as chelating metals out, I don’t think it is very necessary, but if you do, go for it. You may be onto something with that. I just use magnets to make sure there is no iron.
1 Like
I dont think its necessary either ill always be on the side of just using stronger vacuum and better preparation instead of adding unknowns to a flask of cannabinoids that ur essentially gonna be refluxing for hours.
I just came across alot of this stuff researching cbd cyclisation and/or degradation/oxidation products and not sure what to think about it or if real people r actually doing it
and thanks for the insight in all the topics that you share information on, I know it can probably be kinda of irritating sometimes to go over theoretical stuff with people who dont know the theory fully lol
Could some one do me a favor and mix a drop of green tea extract into a fresh batch of distillate…for science? The theory states that it will prevent oxidation, but I need to know if it will make the disty taste like licorice/ass.
2 Likes
Post the exact brand and product you would like tested.
Great info!!