Understanding Thermal Loads

I’m the jerk who started the Who sells huge cryo chillers that aren’t huge disappointments? thread, and for $70k you would have been far better off buying something from Fluid Chillers for cryo temps or Chillking for near 0C temps. I’m sure it won’t make you feel any better but we spent a lot more money to learn the same lessons. AFAIK Huber still hasn’t gotten their shit figured out with data collection on the Pilot One interface, and IMO our industry needs powerful, dumb chillers not ones with touchscreens and other unnecessary, expensive crap.

We’ve sent data packages to Huber a couple times to check our working parameters and some early errors and they are able to read back to us and make suggestions. They are also able to troubleshoot over the phone before sending techs.

I’m about ready to say Hubers are fucking garbage and nobody should buy them, ever. I guess I don’t have experience with the ones bigger than the Unistat 815’s we have but the problems I’ve seen I’m not exactly eager to give them a chance. The Pilot One interface is neat, but so far on 3x Unistat 815’s we’ve seen:

  • One has worse cooling performance than the others right out of the crate. Suspect a pump issue. In communication with Huber about it.

I read that you and George spoke about this and that they were looking at it along with the broken interface, what happened? I don’t see Huber leaving you high and dry, I know George and them and they go above and beyond for customer satisfaction.

  • Can’t reset an alarm from the HMI, have to power off and reboot.

Once you restart the machine the error should be gone, if it i’snt you can do a factory restore in the deep backend of the settings, you need a code for this and I think its like 0000 for the pin or if all else fails you can switch the breaker.

  • If there’s a way to make the chiller attempt to restart after an alarm, I haven’t found it in either interface or manual. Can’t imagine I’m the only one using these with expensive products.

Is this bullet an extension of the previous one?

  • Documentation is painfully bad

The documentation indicates a lot of technical specifications but some of the wording is mistranslated, I will give you that. However, they are worth their weight in gold due to the shear abundance of information found within, these books are priceless to me.

  • Data logging software doesn’t want to read log files from chillers. Has a “patch” I can download from Huber’s website, but doesn’t think the original program has been installed when I try and install the patch software.

I’d be willing to help you through this process by installing the newer updates.

  • Been a month for price & availability on process thermocouple. Nothing. God forbid they just stock or sell me the fuckin connector so I could wire my own.

Whats wrong with the ones it comes with internally? How badly do you need to specify a new thermo reading location?

  • One has touchscreen errors, frequently, for no apparent reason.

If you spill HTF anywhere around the interface, it must be wiped up immediately. Otherwise, if it does break, Huber will go good on replacements.

  • Air burping process is dumb and takes forever

You’re just suppose to run this once for 5 minutes after filling, just once, not every time. Even at that, this step is optional for brand new installs, but speaks more to moving the hoses around or attaching to different applications after the unit has been installed in a different application or area from its previous location.

  • Published specs for cooling performance must have been tested inside a walk-in freezer

This is subjective and is your opinion, for fact the systems are tested thoroughly in Germany.

  • Not enough expansion tank volume & level gauge is slow to register actual level. Spillage is almost guaranteed when trying to fill.

There is a special valve fitting that screws onto of the Huber jugs and prevents spills, you’re also suppose to remove the large thumb screw filling port on the top and fill from there. Not the top of the fluid indicating gauge
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  • Not enough fan area/power (can get considerably better performance by putting a box fan by the exhaust, pulling hot air away from the unit

Cubic footage is expensive, I get it, most rooms are small, and if thats the case, you dont want additional heat rejection in those areas or you WILL have problems, the solution is water-cooled.

I want to get a descent amount of ethanol from our storage freezer at ~-25C to -45 for our process. Above 80F/26C ambient temps the Unistats can barely maintain temps on 60 gallons in an insulated reactor, much less actually cool that far in a reasonable amount of time. These weren’t going to be our “forever” solution for that but they were supposed to be a good stopgap.

Long term to hit the rate I need I want to get 105 gallons an hour cooled down from -25C to -45C. I realize this is going to take a massively large and expensive system to do so. Needless to say this is going to cost cubic dollars, and I’d like to only do so once. Curious if anyone has experience with systems that large that aren’t going to be huge, poorly designed disappointments like these smaller lab chillers have been.

Im confused as to what options and specifications you were citing or looking at due to the following statements you made in the other thread…

Long term to hit the rate I need I want to get 105 gallons an hour cooled down from -25C to -45C

Then you stated;

I’m well aware that the Unistat 815’s are nowhere near large enough in capacity to do 105 gallons of ethanol in an hour. The 105 gal/hr figure is what I’d like to be doing short term, and would like to double that in the longer term. I know that means spending more money and buying more equipment. The lack of capacity is only a portion of my complaints about these units.

If you “knew” the units were undersized, why was procurement authorized? Then you blame the manufacturer and the sales reps? Bill (William) is a smart guy and has lots of experience in Pharmaceutical industries… he has to have ALL the info, and if you are specing an 815 for your reactors but you aren’t describing things like how much square footage is in the space they will be occupying, or how long/short the runs are suppose to be, you are leaving crucial details out and shooting yourself in the foot.

Its likely several degrees of miscommunication occurred between the several parties involved.

That being said, looks like the plan was to double down and get three more 815’s in the future, and from where I’m standing, of course you would look at that with disgust considering the specified equipment couldn’t handle the current work load you have. These should have been 915’s, or bigger reactors maybe? I wouldn’t mind taking a look and crunching some numbers.

Overall, Huber is an upstanding company and they go over and beyond for customer satisfaction, I also read your thread and could see George doing his best to defend the company and make good for you; how did that process play out? Didn’t he try to help you? I guess if he tried to help you by dosing you with a reality check that you’ll need to break out your check book and spend more on the right sized gear is Huber’s fault based off your demeanor and your recent post in this thread.

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Huber has some of the best customer service I’ve come across. Shout out to Bill and Mac.

Edit- To elaborate on that, my CS100 had the legs reversed on the electrical (there is no way to know if this is the case until you start it). When my ETS rep. started the CS100 we JUMPED back, it sounded like a child inside with hammers going to town on the panels, he called a few people, confirmed it was a normal sound and lets that puppy go through her “breaking in phase”

Meanwhile, it’s coding left and right. Huber, not even really asking too many questions expedites TWO new units (CC902 and CS100s) as backups, sends an amazing rep who stayed even longer just prove they work overnight, and confirmed VERY quickly the units I received were actually fine mechanically.

Since they left they I text my rep Mac all the time, Sunday night, Monday mornings, doesn’t matter, the guy responds like a beast and just makes me feel so comfortable working with Huber.

I bought a Kiss202c last week because they’re actually that badass.

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Yes, if the break-in noise is violent enough to startle you, your phases are reversed and the electrician will have to sort the wiring, which is quick and easy af to do.

A normal break in is a little loud but goes away after an hour or so, and certainly doesn’t startle you but you might find you and your colleges looking at each other with anxious concern.

I guess thats the difference between the two scenario’s, haha.

Yeah, when the Huber tech turned it on he had that “did you really think this sounded normal stare” and did not blame him.

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Phase rotation meters are a thing lol. If you start up in reverse with a big screw compressor it will unscrew itself into the compressor housing and destroy itself in seconds. Read that tidbit in the manual and ordered one on the quick when I installed our 200 ton facility chiller.

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Data collection (as in time & thermal readings) is not the same as the ability to send troubleshooting info back, I have no complaints about being able to send service packages back to Huber which we have done, my bitch has been with the ability to read thermal info to do some calculations and graph/aggregate trends in a program like Xcel or using the (broken) spycontrol software Huber has available for download on their website. When Huber sent a tech (Michael) out to our site he showed how to connect a laptop to get that data, but frankly if the thing is advertised to be able to log to a thumb drive, it should be able to log to a thumb drive. I don’t want to tie up multiple laptops for hours at a time to do what should be a simple comparison. If the log-to-USB functionality is still being developed or having bugs worked out their documentation should say so, and unless I missed it, does not.

Huber shipped us a replacement interface to replace the one that was having touchscreen issues. The one that was having worse cooling performance ended up getting shipped back to their NC location to be worked on and has been okay since we got it back. We also had 2 of the ControlOne units crap out (I think the low voltage power supply went bad in both since nothing would light up) and were replaced under warranty.

Restarting does reset errors that are not tied to semi/permanent conditions, but there’s no reason that the machine should prevent you from acknowledging the alarm and resetting it. I have a bunch of stuff to do on the daily, and the PilotOne does take some time to reboot.

It was yes

I appreciate the help, but again, this shouldn’t need help. I’m a fairly tech-savvy guy, if the update errors out without actually updating the software, it’s not doing what it’s supposed to.

A remote mounted thermal probe on the output of what I’m cooling down will register a change in temp faster than the one internal to the heat exchanger. Huber probably wouldn’t have put a port to connect a remote probe if some applications didn’t desire such a thing IMO.

I am not running this step “every time” and it’s hardly optional if you have any significant cooled volume attached to your chiller hoses

Apparently the results of those “thorough tests” are not communicated to their salespeople, I am hardly the only one who has noticed that Huber and their network of dealers have overpromised cooling performance on multiple units, or specing them on systems which need more power than the Huber unit is able to provide.

I do fill using the thumb screw port, my complaint was that the liquid level shown in the gauge is slow to catch up to the actual amount in the tank the thumb screw port fills up. I have used a valve or adjustable speed pump to do the filling, if this special valve is so important to filling properly, it should have been packaged with the units as delivered to us new, and were not.

The amount I was referring to in the statement above this was what I wanted to hit, and have now hit using a Fluid Chillers unit. I was not privy to the conversations between Bill and the guy who bill sold on these units, but the size of the reactors was known to Bill as far as I know and he completely neglected to sell a few things that would have made their use far more manageable, like expansion tanks given the amount of fluid that was bound to be circulated in order to cool them.

Since you seem to have missed where I spelled it out in that thread, I wasn’t the original party who spoke to Bill, I’m the guy who had to pick up all the pieces of a fucked up and broken situation and make it work as best I could to salvage some amount of extraction capacity out of everything that was bought on the advise of questionable consultants and salespeople. As such I have plenty of ire towards the people who wasted thousands of dollars for equipment that didn’t live up to the claims it was supposed to do. Where I have specified and gotten procurements for equipment they have most generally performed as needed, because I like to specify healthy buffer amounts rather than hoping equipment will perform at it’s peak when exposed higher than ideal ambient air temps etc.

Ultimately the better fit unit for us would have cost an order of magnitude more money than had already been spent on the 3x 815’s. George did offer to let us trade them back in towards that unit, but we were still going to have to come up with more than another $150k to get that unit, and after analyzing cost/return, we opted to use 2 of the 815’s to cool reactors and keep one as a backup should anything happen to the first 2, and spend another $60k or so on a Fluid Chillers unit that we have so far been very happy with, using it to do bulk cooling on a ~900 gallon brite tank.

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To your last point- I’m in an identical situation.

ETS overbuilt my setup and the CC902 is failing to achieve and maintain optimal temperature and now had them offer to “discount” my brand new CC902 and “discount” a much larger, much more expensive unit.

I purchased these machines to get away from the use of dry ice. Now I just wish I woulda kept it simple.

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