It is not about to just make it work, but to optimize the process.
Superheated steam at low pressure is the way.(Read the thread before posting!)
For example if you do it @8 mbar and 120 °C the expansion ratio from water to steam is 226791 so you don’t need to evaporate a lot of water for a huge volume of carrier vapor which means it is more energy efficient. At the same time the oils and resins would evaporate faster at low pressures so it is possible to operate at lower temperature what leads to better quality.
Also the patents of loxley systems llc point to enhanced fractioning of the desired components from undesired ones like waxes and sugars.
Loxley bets on conductive heating. Microwave heating the adsorbed water layer on the (inner) surface of the biomass (less the steam) provides for the enthalpy of evaporation of the oils and resins at the verry spot where it is needed.
When the consistency of the extract is like thin sirup at temps under 30 °C you can be sure to have left some resins on the plant. Using a 26 gal boiler to get 5 g is far from an energy efficient system.
1% of oils and resins relative to the biomass(shake?)? This is like 10% extraction efficiency. Looking at resins only it is less regarding low viscosity which means that you fractionated between oils and the verge of resins(typical for direct steam distillation at ambient pressure with saturated or wet steam).
I think the sulphur comes from fertilizer but I have no idea how sulfate is reduced to elemental sulphur in this process. Did you use a reducing agent?
Just not correct.
Please read at least this thread before doing this.
Also read about superheating and relative volatility if you want to understand.
it is not about boiling but evaporating the cannabinoids below their boiling point. At no pressure water boils at the same temperature like the cannabinoids would.
Also distillation with superheated steam does not involve extraction because there is no solvatization taking place.
Definitely you are right.
So the professor of chemistry must have been wrong when he told me so.
BUT:
Regarding the latin word, extrahere which mean pulling out. It implies forces that pull, such like molecular interactions like in solvatization processes.
In this case the carrier gas is actually pushing the vapors of oils and resins, not pulling them so much as the gas is kind of rarified. However there is an adsorbed layer of water molecules on the condensed phase so there are some attractive forces.
Polar solvents may pull… but do non-polar solvents? The temporary dipole of London dispersion forces certainly aren’t of the same magnitude as hydrogen bonding. So does hydrocarbon ‘pull’?
Good question.
Arent we talking about mixing fluids anyways?
I have not read about these dynamics but I would immagine:
dissolving a nonpolar solid in a nonpolar liquid in comparrison to evaporating the solid into vacuum:
the liquid particles would block the solid particles from exerting vapor pressure on the solids surface so more of the solid can fluidize.
In the case of two liquids with different viscosity the one with lower viscosity (and smaller particle size) would infiltrate the more viscous one and disintegrate it or make it less viscous.
sheds some light on the thermodynamic conditions.
Many forces play a role in solution processes. In technical chemistry these processes outcome(equilibria) are estimated with models but I think they do not tell you what forces/mechanism/kinetics are involved:
I have been told that in the case of steam distillation the hydrogen bonds accelerate the evaporation of the oil but I don’t know how or if they contribute to the equilibrium between the immiscibe liquid mixture and vapor phase. Maybe SAFT or some variation of it tells us more bt I am not familliar with these models: Statistical associating fluid theory - Wikipedia
So what I wrote on apr 16 is not quit right because I didn’t think of the adsorbed carrier-vapor layer.
Why don’t you all read the literature a bit…
HPHW. High pressure hot water…it has been noted at least twice here on 4200. It just does not seem you guys know what your talking about. For a miniature version read the Expresso blog here.
Why would you use steam if you can do it at room temp.
Do you know what it is you are trying to “extract”?
Sorry, but you are off topic. I would suggest you to read on superheated steam distillation at reduced pressure.
HPHW is just something different.
btw HPHW or PHWE does as the name suggests not work at ambient temperature but above waters ambient boiling temperature.
By increased op pressure it stays liquid and it’s solvent properties can be tuned to less polar generally speaking.
I don’t know if it’s all three the same but there is another name for something similar:
Subcritical water extraction
All between ambient boiling temperature and critical temperature.
This is a good read on it:
As it is a liquid extraction method it extracts waxes and sugars, which would be avoided by superheated steam distillation at reduced pressure.
I think nobody knows exactly all the constituents of the Cannabis plant.
I just want to distill some “nonvolatiles”.lol
Xanthohumol might be out of reach, because of it’s high melting point, low volatility and tendency to isomerize.
The high pressure hot water study was done on cannabinoids.
Look it up.
I was referencing it because it was an example of “the literature”.
When I said aqueous extraction at room temp…I meant aqueous extraction of cannabinoids at room temp.
So my question to you since this is “sort of a cannabis forum”,
Do you have specific knowledge of high temp and or high pressure water extraction of cannabinoids ?
Have you ever thrown a 1/2 lb of weed into a pressure cooker
With water let it cook for minutes to 3hrs…and looked at what is found in the water? Steam extraction is it real?
How about turn it up a bit to 3000 psi and 300C and make bio-diesel?
I just can’t figure out exactly what your talking about?
Seriously…that is all….terps?
I think steam extraction had great potential for thermally stable cannabinoids…it great for making expresso as well. If you want to experiment…try an expresso maker.
boyo…I have referenced this article 2-3 times in the last 2 years
Try reading “You can use expresso machines to make Marijuana extracts”…posted on this site…
Stop beeing so disrespectful to call me a boyo, moronnabis.
WTFU with Bio-Diesel?
For sure you are not serious but I will make some short comparrison for you.
Actually I have seen before what you are referring to without following your posts:
Also check out:
For extracting cbd from seed I believe it to be the best approach that is known now but for a less altered and broader spectrum from trichomes this direct distillation can be optimized to produce better quality.
There are allready a few companies who have accomplished something useful and market-ready in the field.
Check out Loxley Systems patent for example:
It is capable of extracting and fractionizing in one step. It operates at lower temperature and comparable extraction time.
I think steam would be even more efficient as N2 or CO2 as motive gas.
What exactly do you mean by aqueous extraction at room temp?
Please elaborate or provide some background information. I am not going to use oceans of water and wait all my lifetime to see it happen.
Did you notice they used novel neural nets (trained AI) to analyze the data…?? Nuapia et al.
I have pointed this out previously.
I am trying to figure out , what you are trying to get at with this
Forum on “steam”…which is vapor water…all I see is wiki articles…
Boyo…means “mate”. It is not a disrespectful term.
Have you tried ONE (1) experiment on your own to extract cannabinoids or other chemical compounds from Marijuana utilizing steam?
Do you have a license to do so in your state?
What were your RESULTS?
Or is this just some sort of hypothetical exercise on your part?
All kinds of complex problems are going to be managed with these nets verry soon. I did not notice they used this method. I read that they used Response Surface Methodology.
I am just writing up thoughts for others to inspire and to get feedback on something new which I think deserves to get more recognition.
I am german. Please excuse the misunderstanding and strange use of language.
I have tried superheated steam distillation at ambient pressure. That is allready two years ago now.
Back then I had problems with the setup which was not really sophisticated. So I don’t have any results to show. Nevertheless I am verry motivated to to try something similar at just above waters triplepoint pressure to see if I can use water. Kind of like in the drawing.
Maybe I am to autistic and have a lack of understanding the contextual meaning of your words but I am not more of a bot than you are. Theoretical understanding of the process backed up by facts is even more real than somebody who claims something on the internet what has been done or not.
I know of Bouldercreek Technologies, Loxley Systems, Evo extracts, Vapor Distilled, Natural Extraction Systems, GW Pharma and the destructive distillation from Shiva(did not read) and Cannrx so far.
If you know of any more please let me know.
Actually you are disrespectful again by suggesting that I am a bot.
What about the diesel and room temp extraction?
Any real thoughts or just watering down a thread?
If you still don’t get what this is about just get outta here.
You are not contributing to the discussion. You are strictly off topic and really have nothing to share and are just discrediting me ad hominem with suggestive questions.
For the sake of kindness PLEASE stop writing as I am not going to answer you any further questions.
Go check yourself for trollism.
I am autistic and I have really better things to do with my time than thinking about you not understanding me, my intentions and writing.
I don’t find anything with the name “non miscible vapor distillation”. Also it does not really make sense to me as I don’t see any vapors being nonmiscible. Superheated allways means dry steam.
What do you think what pressure range is reasonable?
As mentioned I would like to cocondense aqueous and organic phase as liquid. Do you think below the pressure of waters triple point the process would be way more efficient?
Cocondensation might be easy and clean to realize in comparison to separating out organic aerosols from steam which would be resublimated to ice under even lower pressure.
I would categorize all these processes under (direct) carrier-gas distillation or motive-gas distillation.