Solventless HTE

[Bosin]

Recently i have been running some R@D on bubble/dry sift.

Im looking for a way to pull unaltered volatiles and aromatics into solution without heat or chemical solvents.

As far as scalability, would it be feasible to run dry ice + steam terps on the same biomass in succession, then combine at an appropriate ratio and send through a membrane filter (or some other post cleanup)?

Obviously, you will run into output issues, as you’re getting back 10-20% sieve, and maybe 1-2% terpenes?

But ignore that. From a technical perspective, what do we think of this process?
Our steam obviously gets exposed to much more heat then even rosin, but our sift portion gets no exposure to heat at all. Things that are very volatile should carry better this way than pressing, no?

Would love to hear opinions on this. Ran a few test batches, seems to work as expected, HTE layer comes very bold though (depending on application it would seem to need remediation, i foresee it gunking up coils something fierce as is, im thinking membrane should be able to clean it up?)

One thing that is apparent is our targets will be diluted, and im unsure exactly what ratios are achievable well still retaining enough fluidity to do something with it in post. But the thought process here is for very volatile compounds, they wouldn’t be captured at all via pressing… some has to be better than none?

[cyclopath]

@Bosin

Im looking for a way to pull unaltered volatiles and aromatics into solution without heat or chemical solvents

Without solvent, there can be no solution…

You want to capture the volatiles.
You’re expecting/hoping for a liquid

@Bosin

for very volatile compounds, they wouldn’t be captured at all via pressing

I’d try vacuum before trying steam…

@Bosin

our targets will be diluted, and im unsure exactly what ratios are achievable well still retaining enough viscosity to do something with it in post.

Don’t understand this part at all…diluted when captured? Or afterwards?

With what?
Retain enough viscosity?

You want the light volatiles you capture as a liquid to be “thick”?!?

Done correctly I would expect water clear and negligible viscosity…

@Bosin

would it be feasible to run dry ice + steam terps on the same biomass in succession, then combine at an appropriate ratio and send through a membrane filter (or some other post cleanup)?

Dry ice to collect the trichomes, then steam distillation on the (now mostly trichome free) biomass?

Where are the majority of the light volatiles after kiefing?

[Bosin]

Seems my original post was confusing, to clarify i want to:

Take trichomes (bubble, dry ice sift, whatever), dissolve in terp (yes, i know, terpenes are technically a solvent. Bad title lol.)
Filter out solids/impurity’s (membrane?) somehow in post to an acceptable level where this won’t terribly clog pens/char a banger, etc.

Vac is an option for catching super volatiles yes. More or less though, im looking to get an output in the style of an unrefined CO2/HTFSE. Again, not looking to use heat or chemical solvents anywhere in process on the actual targets i want. Main question was mainly how feasible membrane would be for post cleanup on liquid, have seen some neat stuff done there (that’s where the viscosity comes into play, apologies).

[cyclopath]

@Bosin

that’s where the viscosity comes into play

Membranes will work better with lower viscosity

@Bosin

still retaining enough viscosity to do something with it in post.

I’m concerned you have viscosity backwards, which is more viscous honey or water?

@Bosin

Take trichomes (bubble, dry ice sift, whatever), dissolve in terp (yes, i know, terpenes are technically a solvent. Bad title lol.)
Filter out solids/impurity’s (membrane?) somehow in post to an acceptable level where this won’t terribly clog pens/char a banger, etc

And the source for those terpenes?

Steam distillation on post kiefed biomass?!?

[Bosin]

That was my initial idea from a process standpoint yes.
Im sure the ratios are going to be significantly altered at that point as you removed most of the tric heads, but there is unquestionably shit left in the bio, and if we use dry ice whatever remains should be relatively intact, no?

Alternatively, pretend i source the steam (eliminating our ratio problem), pull it from separate scap bio, or just flat out use limonene for this. Again, my main question is how to cleanup liquid in post. Membranes seem really interesting here. Wondering if anyone played with anything like this before mainly. Again, i want to get things into a solid free liquid downstream w/o heat or chemical solvent.

[cyclopath]

If I was trying to capture volatiles that did not make it into the squish, I would try capturing them first under vac, the combine with squish.

Trying to capture them from the fraction remaining on the biomass post kiefing makes little sense to me.

Dissolving trichomes in limonene simply wrecks the profile you’re trying to maintain. IMO.

[Roguelab]

Reading treu I still don t get the way you Wich to collect the terps from biomass
Or kief
As @MagisterChemist showed pure terpenes mixtures can be passed treu membranes BUT
Membranes should never get dry after first use meaning the last used terpene profile is gona be inside the next
Mixing in and there things go skewed

[cyclopath]

@Bosin

Wondering if anyone played with anything like this before mainly.

Yep. Ish.

Membrane oil final pics

Here’s a pretty impressive picture, and a fun project. If your oil is thin enough (I.E., high terpene extract) you can put it through a membrane with no solvent at all. This is probably the best result I have got for membrane purified oil. These samples are pure oil, not solvent solutions. Left is feed (garbage quality HTE). Middle is a looser membrane. Right is a tighter membrane. Note it was either treated with the loose or tight membrane. It didn’t use both in series. [PXL_20240123_2033447…

Again: which is higher viscosity, water or honey.

[Bosin]

That link pretty much answers my question, thanks. Currently my outputs look far more like the vial on the left/middle than the vial on the right, so this seems like it may be feasible. Had the verbiage screwed up yes, but regardless my output seems liquid enough at RT to go through a membrane.

The steam portion would be capturing what’s left (what im after is long gone or destroyed once it hits the collection flask), which i would then use to dissolve what’s in the tricome heads. Filter through a membrane. Get some type of HTFSE liquid that has never been exposed to solvent or heat (past the steam portion). Essentially i want to use the terps in place of a press…

Hypothetically this would probably get redispersed into the rest of the press yes, so your idea with vacing it out and reintroducing tracks, but was looking for another way around the same problem.

[cyclopath]

@Bosin

Had the verbiage screwed up

yep…and without sorting that out first, htf can folks be expected to help?

How about exploring the expectation that stuff pulled from inside of trichomes will do a good job of dissolving trichomes…seems somewhat unlikely given the biology

limonene certainly seems to get the trick done, so there is precedent…

[Bosin]

Have you ever made LHO? I don’t think it’s as unlikely as you suspect…

Based on R&D, it seems like it’s pulling TOO much, including shit like wax, pigment, whatever else, hence the need for a membrane or some type of cleanup.

Lets simplify so we are on the same page here:

1. Extract kief using terpenes as a solvent.
2. Filter out solids (plant particles)
3. Remove impurities with membrane/???

Im currently at step 3. If you have any additional ideas for remediation past a membrane that would be great. Nothing but respect for all of you, but from the R@D i ran this seems to work in principle. I just need to figure out how to clean up the output and optimize.

Again, lets even pretend i source the terps vs pulling them out of our bio…Is this a reasonable way to pull crap we would be missing on a press, well still not using any solvents??? Do you think you could reasonably clean the outputs via membrane where it won’t char the fuck out of coils or a banger?

[cyclopath]

Can it be done?

Sure.

Will the economics of production make sense?

Doubtful.

The enabling information is likely in the thread linked above.

[Cassin]

@Bosin

well still not using any solvents???

This is a me being a dick post. <3

The fuck is wrong with you? Is this a marketing ploy? You trying to get around some weird regulation using junk science?

Because you are using SOLVENTS - water and whatever terpenes you have. So stop saying “still not using any solvents”. And even if you were using HTE that you got from the plant - if you are then dissolving solids into it - its a solvent.

At this point you have said that you are doing a process that doesn’t use solvents and doesn’t use heat. While clearly indicating that you are using solvents (and perhaps even going to use solvents that are not from the plant) and proposing to use steam which is heat.

You have be so fucking confused that I figured it might help your thought process if you shared with us what you are trying to accomplish.

Because what you have said is that you want a solvent free, heatless process - which uses solvents and steam.

And you want a specific “membrane” to be able to “clean up” this solvent based, previously heated liquid solution.

Given that you are already in a solvent. And you have already applied heat. Is there a reason that any of the normal “clean up” solutions will not work for you?

What kind of IMPURITIES are you trying to remove with your membrane? Because in Step 1 - you have used terpenes as a solvent on a mechanically dry ice separated dry sift/kief material. Step 2 - you are filtering out large particles. Step 3 - you want to remove what?

There are so many things that could be removed at this point. Are you wanting to remove chemical impurities? elemental impurities? cell bodies that were too small to get removed from Step 2? Microbial contaminates? Lipids? Waxes? Gums? Sugars?

All of the above? Just some?

Too much terpenes can cahr the fuck out of all kinds of things. Are you doing a “solvent recovery” step at some point? What % terpenes are you allowing to stick around?

Since you have a liquid - are you unwilling to do any of the other LLE steps that will help remove many but not all of the above? And if not - why not?

It seems to me like you are trying to fit inside a very specific round hole with what generally sounds like a square peg. If you explain the GOAL and reasons behind why you are asking us all for our R&D experience, it might help us respond better.

Because what you have asked for and what you have said you are doing are not actually in the same circle on the Venn diagram. <3

Thanks!

[Bosin]

Weird regulations?
In many locales, im pretty sure this would be correctly labeled as a solventless product. Would love to hear some debate there, but that’s our take. Yes, water and terpenes are both chemically acting as a solvent in this case. But our regulatory definitions seemingly don’t match up.

When i take my trichome heads and press them, there is lots of heat involved. Yes, heat is involved in the steam fraction. But im trying to pull things that would surely be LOST or ALTERED on your press. So i want to use a terp fraction in place of a press… My trichome heads are never heated hence my super volatiles should be intact and go into solution.

So yes, our goodies are now in our “solvent”. Which has been heated. But what we actually want has never been exposed to heat, or chemical solvents. I understand the economic issues that @cyclopath mentioned, nobody is saying this would be terribly lucrative.

As far as cleanup, im not sure. I guess it depends on the viscosity of the outputs? Terpenes as a solvent in this way pull a rather broad range of stuff, so you definitely need cleanup of some sort to prevent gunking coils or charing quartz. As far as targets Pigments, waxs, sugars, ???. I guess it’s similar to cleanup of unrefined CO2 terp.

Lets take your square peg round hole analogy though. I want outputs that are more similar to unrefined CO2 or htfse than straight steam in terms of targets/composition but are clean enough to use in vapes/concentrates without terrible gunking/charring, membrane seems like it would be the best choice there. I don’t want to use chemical solvents anywhere in the process. The output “terp”/hte is obviously going to be terribly hot for cannabinoids, we do realize this. We are trying to get what we want into a liquid solution (terp), well knocking out as many undesirables as possible, without using chemical solvents or heat. Other than vac i don’t have an answer, and i was looking for one. Rather complex problem but i was looking for a novel way to do this even if it wasn’t terribly economic viable or scalable.

[cyclopath]

@Bosin

nobody is saying this would be terribly lucrative.

Get pricing…

Membrane and Process Development Supplies & Equipment | Sterlitech

One could potentially solve

@Roguelab

Membranes should never get dry after first use meaning the last used terpene profile is gona be inside the next
Mixing in and there things go skewed

by chucking the membrane each time you switch strains. How does that price out?

[justacusty]

@Bosin

In many locales, im pretty sure this would be correctly labeled as a solventless product

So yes, a marketing ploy. A widely shared delusion, but a delusion nonetheless

[Bosin]

Ignore the “solventless” part of the equation, then.

Do you have any way to achieve what we are after without using hydrocarbon-based solvents? Other than vac?

Lets also look at the limits set in places like MA on solvent residue, and tell me how you plan to purge your traditional sauce down without fucking up the aromatics…

We have already established a press will either destroy or alter what we are after.

It’s arguably an equal or larger marketing gimmick to sell material that got put under pressure at 200°F as “live”, no? That shits dead. Or the dreaded “liquid diamonds”. Or lately in some markets “rosin” that contains butane lol. If it meets compliance/regulatory threshold in the market, that should be good enough?

[Bosin]

That may actually work (assuming pricing isn’t prohibitive to trash the filters, exploring now), thankyou!

[cyclopath]

@Bosin

Do you have any way to achieve what we are after without using hydrocarbon-based solvents? Other than vac?

I think so…

After reading

@Bosin

We have already established a press will either destroy or alter what we are after.

Pretty sure I could Argue it was non-obvious to one skilled in the Art.

So why should I give it away?

[Cassin]

@Bosin

We have already established a press will either destroy or alter what we are after.

Can you please clarify - is it just the press or the heat on the press that you think will destroy the product you are making?

There are many ways to use solid state to filter materials with or without membranes. However, pressure is used for this to move things across the filter membrane or through the solid state materials.

@Bosin

and tell me how you plan to purge your traditional sauce down without fucking up the aromatics

This is a normal practice - at low pressure, with minimal temperatures (often just at room temperature) as that’s when those volatiles come off. I’m sure you know this already. I’ve been doing this in licensed facilities for almost a decade now and removing residuals is probably the easiest part of all the work. I’m not entirely sure what you mean when you say “fucking up the aromatics”. My experience shows that our terpene layers are very similar to those from CO2 extraction, squishing and centrifuging, and steam distillation. Subtle differences perhaps - but I don’t think I’ve ever considered them “fucked up”. Honestly - more fuck ups happen during hardware/cartridge FILLING than the rest of preparation. -shrug-

@Bosin

If it meets compliance/regulatory threshold in the market, that should be good enough?

No. That should never be good enough. Just because there isn’t a “regulation” for something or against something doesn’t mean you should do it. I don’t think you are proposing to do something dangerous to customers or workers - but you should think about that for yourself. Don’t just rely on the rules to guide you - use your knowledge and expertise as well.

Just following the existing rules kills plenty of people. And just following the rules leads to a lot of customer misinformation and general myth building which creates rifts between different users of the plant.

The most pure form of the plant? The least invasive? The least fucked up? All these are marketing gimmicks.

You’re asking about creating a new method to create a new product to compete with others. I think that’s wonderful and we want to support you. But you’re also denigrating existing products that have been giving customers ACCESS.

Why not use a flower product? Why not a classic hash product? Why not an edible? Why not squished product? Why not a high-potency decarboxylated isolate product?

What sets your solvent solution of trichomes apart from all these other existing products? And what part of the ~10% of the existing marketplace for concentrates and beyond the ~30% of vaping products will your product win over while expanding access for customers in your state?