Hey Team,
I am currently going through my State Fire Marshall stuff with Oklahoma and can’t get a straight answer in regards to Rotavaps. I’ve got an AI 20L Rotavap and put it in a C1D2 booth, my question boils down to where do I have to put the pump and the chiller. I’d prefer the chiller be outside the booth and the pump inside, but they’re asking me to refer to my engineer on record if that’s allowed. While I have an engineer for my BHO machine I did not think it necessary to get one for a 20L Rotavap, anyone have experience with this they could shed some light on?
Thank you,
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Any electronics not rated for Class 2 environments should not be in the booth. The booth should have vacuum and liquid inlet lines, you’d be best using them, however overkill it may seem or be. If your Vacuum has C1DII on the name plate then you could in theory use it, but it boils down to what you can convince your local Marshall of.
Edit: the chiller should not be tucked into a corner like that, this was just a setup picture.
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Agreed. If it’s in the booth, it needs to be rated to be in the booth. The less you have in there the easier your life is going to be.
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I’d put it outside of the booth to keep the regulator happy, be sure to route the exhaust of the pump back into the booth aswell
Place the exhaust outlet as close to the vent as possible, might even be worthwhile to direct the exhaust into a carboy or woulff bottle to catch any drips
I mean, lets be clear everybody - that rotovap itself isn’t C1D2. And therefore, the whole environment is no longer C1D2. It’s just a rotovap in a fume hood - you’ll be safe regardless of if the pump is in the hood or not.
If you’re still worried, sit pump outside and lead exhaust back in…but is that SAFER than having the whole pump in the hood? Arguably no, since the air AROUND your pump has a high likelihood of having solvent vapor lingering around it. And also, it means you’re porting solvent vapor out of the hood and then back in.
Understanding that the space is no longer C1D2 since you have a massive piece of non-C1D2 equipment sitting in it…would you rather the air around your pump be extremely well ventilated, or would you like to plumb solvent vapor out of your hood and then back in? To me, Id just sit the pump in the hood because then the whole system is ventilated - no matter where you place the pump, that area is no longer C1D2 regardless.
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I don’t disagree, but when someone says “State Fire Marshall … [is] asking me to refer to my engineer on record if that’s allowed” the engineer answer is “no non-classified electrical stuff in the classified space,” even if the most correct answer starts with “lemme see the paperwork for that roto you’ve got.”
There can be a rather strong argument for “rotos shouldn’t need to be in booths in the first place” but it’s never a good idea to argue with an engineer, a fire marshal, or any other AHJ.
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An engineer should be able to successfully make the argument that you don’t need C1D2 for that size rotovap.
Your area can remain “unclassified” if your solvent vapors are below 25% the solvent LEL…which in a fume hood pulling several hundred CFM…you’re well below at all times. That is to say, if you’re in a hood with a ton of air replacements constantly going…you probably don’t actually need C1D2 by the letter if the code.
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Thanks for your guys’ responses.
Have you had to get 3rd party peer reviews for rotavaps under your AHJ? It’s look like my SFM is requesting it.
The problem with asking questions of AHJs is that when they give you answers you then know the answer and can’t not know the answer.
I’d be incredibly shocked if an AI roto passed a legitimate peer review to qualify it for use in a classified space, if it didn’t already come with that paperwork.
It almost certainly doesn’t have NRTL listed components with hazardous area classification ratings, and you’re highly unlikely to find an engineer or code consultant who is up on ATEX classifications and will write you a “Zone 2 = C1D2, yer good” letter.
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I thought the whole point of the booth is so you don’t have to have C1D2 or better rated equipment? The roto is not rated so I don’t know why your vacuum pump would need to be.
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If that were the case anything could go in a c1d1 extraction booth.
Heidolph sells a c1d2 roto and some others. Chinese c1d2 rotos arent anything but a way for trappers to feel more secure until their lab catches on fire.
The pic I posted probably wasnt a good example but one thing to consider is that the lab was professionally built and approved by Greenfield CA fire Marshall.
Anything CAN go in a C1D1 area, it just declassified the room is all. If you want the room to remain C1D1, then yes only C1D1 electronics can enter.
I don’t see the problem with having non C1D2 equipment in his C1D2 hood unless someone tells him that he needs to actually maintain C1D2 through and through…which arguably, he doesn’t. If you maintain below 25% LEL of solvent used, you don’t need classification plain and simple. The whole point of a fume hood is to allow you to handle chemicals without making your room full on classified. OP is totally fine to put non C1D2 equipment in there according to NFPA.
Here’s some more info, because this is a commonly recurring misconception about when you need C1D2…
Edit: you need to have an HVAC engineer size your blowers and balance your air to make sure your CFMs provide enough dilution to remain below 25% LEL. But for real guys, this is exactly why “it’s all good in the hood.”
Also, sorry to anyone who was unfamiliar with the code and spent way too much on a full on C1D1/2 room for a rotovap lol. If the engineer who stamped your fire report says otherwise, they’re wrong and were covering their ass/license by prescribing overkill measures. Good engineers save you money, lazy ones tell you to go C1D2 for a squirt bottle of acetone bc then the fire you start definitely isn’t their fault.
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You are correct. OP is totally fine here.
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Yes, exactly.
The issue is likely this: OP has that space designated as a C1D2 classified space.
Does he need that? Probably not.
But if it’s classified as such in his plans, and the Fire Marshall has that understanding, no amount of “but that’s stupid” arguing will get over the hill. And the answer to equipment without a C1D2 certification in a C1D2 space is “absolutely not.”
Finding an engineer who actually understands the code, explaining to them what your actual intent and goals are, and working with them to communicate those goals in a report to the AHJ requires understanding all of that in the first place.
99.9% of operators in this industry and probably 80+% of engineers who are not specialists in fire code don’t understand that.
Hell, even many engineers who are allegedly specialists in fire code will say “no you have to do c1d1 because you’re the demon lettuce and then we don’t have to think or do math.”
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