Possible serious health problems with pot use

Solid evidence? Yep, the kid I mentioned is back in the hospital again…and it’s definitely pot.

Medline + Scihub were able to rule out his kratom usage (nausea but not vomiting are associated with kratom poisoning), but not the possibility that his world first Morel tempeh (made by inoculating with morel mycelium!!) was the root of the problem. Especially as there was alcohol involved (3 beers). None of the dozen other folks who tried it had issues, but it was still a formal possibility.

His mom had to present him with the positive THC result on the urine test she requested in the emergency room before he admitted that he’d been sm0king again. (&^(&+_#(#)(0

there’s gotta be some other way of dealing with his non-typical neurochemistry, but pot clearly helps if he was willing to go through another near death vomiting session.

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It is interesting to note that the worse case scenario taken up by that paper is that the people who react this way to obsessive and in the case of your friend attempts at hiding use present the major problem of simply eating up emergency room resources.

In the case of your friend the report is that he has been lying about his behavior. Of course the trouble with using this as a statistic is the obvious question; what else is he not disclosing? This syndrome is like many really insofar as it seems to be a diagnosis that is not obvious at first, requires what a typical doctor thinks is multiple tests, scans, and even opiod treatment, and ultimately requires truth telling on the patients part to diagnose.

In your friends case he has shown what the study claims is typical behavior and continues to injest whatever it is he is ingesting that falls under the HUGE blanket category of majiuanna use. Since he lies about it as others would it would be tough to nail down what the issue is. I had a million allergies as a kid and got shots daily for them. Most have moderated and the few I have are dealt with. Orange juice, apple juice, or grape juice, are all mild poisons to me this way. I can tell you that if I showed up after gulping down a quart of orange juice and lied about it that most of what goes down in the report quoted would be played out too. The difference of course is I am not showing addictive behavior towards that substance so deception would make no sense.

I have long suspected personally that concentrating terpenes and inhaling them without a combustion cycle to break them down would surely present itself in the decades to come as a chronic health risk. The paper talks about abdominal pain. The paper does not attempt to explain why. Could it be that excessive and ongoing hacking and coughing are tearing up your guts lolz? In the case of your friend who engages in deception you made mention of extremely suspicious “other” admitted to behavior involving alcohol and fungus consumption. Since this is a rare syndrome given the number of folks now using pot the rarity of it is almost certainly linked to a behavioural lifestyle. In other words people like your deceptive friend may keep returning to use out of extreme anxiety that is otherwise not treated. Your anecdotal info that he is injesting new exotic things like those mushrooms would lead me to believe he experiments otherwise too and fibs about it.

This syndrome smacks of something other than simple marijuanna usage. At first glance it appears to be a compulsive disorder of some kind that based now on decades of legitimate and illegitimate access to high potency weed is only just popping up in a minor portion of the population. The health risk is discomfort. The public health risk is consuming emergency department resources. Unlike alcohol the risk of cessation carries no withdrawl symptoms typical of alcohol or opiod and in fact cessation carries immediate relief unlike those other drugs. The real danger here and no joke is that a much more serious problem that the symptoms could indeed be something much more serious but the only diagnostic “fit” is this new syndrome.

This smacks of an untreated compulsive/anxiety disorder and good luck treating it by simply telling the patient to stop trying to medicate it. When I was morbidly obese tipping the scales over 375 pounds and closing in on 400 I had all kinds of people inform me it was not good for me. However until I treated the underlying anxiety (PTSD) in a formal setting it made no difference. Once the anxiety was treated, partly with MMJ, I lost all the weight down to size and weight proportional. The obesity was not the disease, it was a symptom.

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Reference?

Let me share a real world observstion about this syndrome called hypermesis. The symptoms are nausea, vomitting, severe abdominal pain and such things as this.

The reason I would urge caution with suggesting to another that they might be suffering from this is that those symptoms also happen to be the same for liver cancer. The medical worry would be that a person self diagnosing their symptoms this way would delay seeking medical care which normally should not be delayed.

I give LOADS of good old stinky advice hehe and I want to help but I personally will begin carefully limiting my comments about medical matters. Good intentions regarding medical advice could spell disaster. The product helps me and this is the extent of the info medical wise I think I will limit myself ro talking about - jist how it helps me. In a way recent experiences were a lab revealling new data to consider.

Life is good. I’m gonna vape a bag at 400C just for the hell of it and walk down to Starbucks. I heard drinking their coffee cures PTSD so I never miss a morning… :flushed:

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Anyone else ever start sweating when they smell a big bag of top shelf herb? It happens every time if i have a high quality pound in my face. I sweat, my face tightens and my mouth produces saliva. Its not a bad feeling, but I would call it a reaction. I also get the same reaction from sour candy. Sometimes I can even get the reaction from thinking about weed or sour candy but thats rare.

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Another possible health consequence not mentioned here, but which I have heard lots of buzz about lately, is drug interactions with CBD. Like grapefruit, it can inhibit enzyme CYP3A4 which interacts with many drugs. Does anyone have more info?

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I’m going to post this without comment, to generate discussion.

July 27, 2017

The Curious Case of Cannabis Hyperemesis Syndrome

A new condition has made headlines for making marijuana users ill, but some in the cannabis community believe it’s more complicated than smoking too much chronic.

by Madison Margolin
Merry Jane

Taeia Kaley-Dolan was sick for two years before she realized she had cannabis hyperemesis syndrome.

In 2014, she began smoking weed for anxiety and depression following the death of her brother. Soon, she started retching up mucous and feeling intense abdominal pain. “I could feel my heartbeat in my stomach,” Kaley-Dolan describes. “I blamed it on stress. I basically continued to smoke to take more of the edge off.” But it got worse. The daily nausea began to kick in, then the vomiting. It felt like a flu that wouldn’t go away.

“I went all day puking, wondering what I could do to stop it,” she says. The now 19-year-old Ohioan realized hot baths or showers, plus weed, made her feel better, especially given cannabis’ capacity for suppressing nausea.

Unfortunately, the relief that weed and warm water brought her didn’t last. Kaley-Dolan started smoking more, and getting sick at least twice as often. She went to the hospital for tests that left both her and doctors clueless. She lost jobs and friends, missed school, and couldn’t leave the house for more than a couple hours without having to bolt to a bathroom. She went from smoking a gram or two per week, to about half an ounce; cannabis was the only thing that relieved her symptoms. Unbeknownst to her, it was also the reason she was sick.

“I stand by the medical properties of cannabis so much; I respect what it’s done for so many people, so I didn’t know what I was doing wrong,” she says. “Finally I came across [an] article about cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome.” It described her symptoms to a T.

In recent months, cannabis hyperemesis syndrome has picked up more media attention, especially around the turn of the year. (Kaley-Dolan, however, found out about it in April 2017.)

As a purported phenomenon unfolding in states with newly legal cannabis, such as Colorado and Washington, it’s still unclear how prevalent the syndrome actually is. With sensational headlines in international publications calling it a “mysterious” and “bizarre” vomiting condition that compels victims to take hot baths and visit the emergency room, little is known about cannabis hyperemesis syndrome beyond its connection to weed. More nuanced takes on the syndrome are rare, but they point to other factors like specific strain qualities, molds and pesticides, or particular terpenes.

There were no documented cases of cannabis (or cannabinoid) hyperemesis syndrome before 2004. “I started to dig into it, and my boyfriend and I found a bunch of these articles about azadirachtin poisoning,” says Kaley-Dolan.

Azadirachtin is an organic pesticide extracted from neem oil. It’s approved by the Organic Materials Review Institute (OMRI), which means it’s vastly safer to use than nastier, inorganic pesticides like myclobutanil. Considered the lesser of many evils, it became popular with conscientious cannabis farmers in the early aughts — around 2004.

“More so recently you see a lot of these people with this syndrome and they’re stuck thinking it’s the cannabis, but it’s not; it’s the azadirachtin poisoning,” says Kaley-Dolan. “It builds up in your system over time and that’s what’s toxic, and your body rejects it by throwing it up. The reason the cannabis works so well is that it’s antiemetic; it makes you not nauseous. You feel better, but over time, the azadirachtin levels in your body overpower all the antiemetic properties of cannabis. That’s what happened to me. I smoked until I couldn’t smoke any more.”

In May, Kaley-Dolan tried going to prom. She got all dressed up in an effort to enjoy the last bit of high school, but regrettably she got sick again and was finally hospitalized. Completely dehydrated from vomiting, she admitted to the hospital staff in Auburn, Ohio — where a limited medical marijuana law applies only to those with qualifying conditions — that she’d been smoking black market weed. She’s since been off cannabis, and on a number of pharmaceuticals to treat not just her remaining nausea, but also tangential conditions she’d developed on account of unintentionally poisoning herself for two years.

To get the word out about the distinction between cannabis hyperemesis syndrome and azadirachtin poisoning, Kaley-Dolan’s boyfriend Maxwell Phillips sent a link to Instagram celebrity Tony Greenhand, who’s famous for making “smokeable art” out of joints and blunts. Greenhand reposted it, garnering hundreds of likes and comments.

“Cannabis hyperemesis is not a thing,” Greenhand wrote in an email to MERRY JANE. “What we think is cannabis hyperemesis IS [actually] azadirachtin poisoning. Cannabis hyperemesis was invented due to the symptoms created from azadirachtin poisoning.”

Neem oil, from which azadirachtin is derived, is a common pesticide and fungicide that’s been used in cannabis farming for many years to ward off spider mites, invasive bacteria, and other pests. However, neem oil can be difficult to apply and needs to be kept warm in order to remain a liquid. “If sprayed on cannabis flowers, neem oil does not dissolve or evaporate for long periods of time, directly affecting the naturally occurring oils and terpenes,” explains Greenhand, a former cannabis grower. "In its concentrated form, azadirachtin does not solidify at room temperature and is easier to apply.”

Azadirachtin products like Azatrol, Azamax, and Azasol are supposed to stay on the plant residually for about 21 days. Typically, they shouldn’t be sprayed after the fourth week of the grow cycle, but some growers spray later if they have an infestation. That means the chemicals might still be on the plant by the time it gets to the consumer.

“I’ve never met a grower who, at the very least, doesn’t use neem oil,” says Brandon Neff, a medical marijuana farmer from Oregon. “A lot of other people in my area use Azamax and other products. It’s something no grower really wants to have to use, but when I try to go and use the beneficial bug route [using insects to deter more destructive pests], sometimes the mites are more resilient. It’s a bad issue: You don’t want to harm the plant, but no grower wants to be responsible for additional harm to the patient. We only want to help heal.”

Neem itself is a highly medicinal plant, used for centuries in India’s ayurveda medicinal practice and as a part of integrative healthcare. Health food stores even sell neem toothpaste.

Azadirachtin, one of the active ingredients in neem, serves as an insect growth regulator, preventing pests from reproducing when it’s sprayed on plants.

“A lot of organic farmers who are well intentioned are using these pesticides because they’re on approved lists of what can be used and are OMRI certified,” says Alec Dixon, co-founder of SC Laboratories in California. “The most important thing to recognize is the way people are using these pesticides. Even organic pesticides can be applied improperly.” At face value, azadirachtin might be no more harmful than other types of horticultural oils like rosemary or peppermint, he adds, but growers still need to use them cautiously. “If they’re using these products late into the flowering cycle, a few weeks leading up to harvest, there’s a guarantee that you’re leaving residue behind on the flower.”

And the build up of that residual azadirachtin in heavy smokers might cause cannabis hyperemesis syndrome — but we don’t know for sure. Correlation doesn’t necessarily mean causation, Dixon points out.

In 2013, an acute case of neem oil toxicity was documented in the Indian Journal of Critical Care Medicine. Among other symptoms, the patient suffered from nausea and vomiting. Other cases of poisoning have since been reported in India, where neem is widely used.

Traditionally, neem has been used to treat a variety of health conditions including inflammation, colds, flu, gum disease, heart disease, high blood pressure, pain, athlete’s foot, and scabies among others. However, for the small number of people who are allergic or sensitive to neem, it doesn’t come without side effects, such as abnormal heart rhythms, low blood pressure, anemia, cardiac arrest, loose stools, liver damage, seizures, or vomiting. These go above and beyond the basic symptoms of cannabis hyperemesis syndrome.

Some argue that azadirachtin poisoning and cannabis hyperemesis are completely different phenomena.

“It doesn’t make any physiological sense that those two would be linked together,” says Dr. Jeffrey Raber, founder of the Werc Shop, a lab testing facility in Los Angeles. “You’d be able to see the same syndrome without the cannabinoids.” Raber describes cannabis hyperemesis syndrome as an overactivation of the body’s endocannabinoid system. “It’s saying, ‘Get this out of me’,” he says. “We’ve been able to see people who had the syndrome mitigated through the reintroduction of terpenes and fewer cannabinoids.”

Moreover, azadirachtin was introduced to the market well before cannabis hyperemesis syndrome was first documented. The EPA first registered azadirachtin for use on food crops in 1990, according to Murray Isman, University of British Columbia professor of entomology and toxicology, with a specialty in natural pesticide botanicals. For decades now, it’s been used extensively on food crops throughout North America, Europe, the Caribbean, and Sub-Saharan Africa. The California Department of Pesticide Registration, for instance, published that nearly 4,000 pounds of azadirachtin were applied to crops in 2014, including 1,000 pounds on strawberries and 440 pounds on lettuce.

“It’s probably one of the safest pest control products on the market place,” says Isman. “I have never heard of a single case of azadirachtin poisoning in a human in the U.S.” Azadirachtin itself is a triterpene chemical, Isman explains, meaning that it wouldn’t be an allergen anyways, since all allergens are proteins and peptides.

“Having said that, Azamax is 1.2 percent azadirachtin, which means the rest of the formula is solvents and all the other stuff that makes a pesticide a pesticide,” Isman adds. “That’s not to say there isn’t something in all the other stuff that couldn’t cause a GI reaction, but it’s really unlikely. It’s used on food crops all the time.”

Karl Young, director of Hermetic Botanicals, a company that makes remedies for cannabis hyperemesis syndrome, also says there’s no direct link to azadirachtin poisoning. He suggests that the only way way azadirachtin might potentiate cannabis hyperemesis syndrome is if it causes gallbladder dysfunction. In such cases, an imbalance of the body’s enzymes would make it such that the body gets overloaded with CBD.

CBD plays a distinct role in cannabis hyperemesis syndrome. “In animals, the effect of CBD on toxin-induced vomiting displays a biphasic response, with low doses producing an anti-emetic effect, whereas higher doses enhance vomiting,” according to a 2011 studypublished in Curr Drug Abuse Review.

Whatever role, if any, that azadirachtin plays in cannabis hyperemesis syndrome, there’s a risk in trying to eliminate the use of this organic pesticide altogether. Since such a tiny percentage of cannabis consumers are affected by the syndrome, it may not make sense or be likely for the industry to change its cultivation practices en masse. “A lot of people would be dealing with huge potential catastrophic losses of bug infestation or mold powdery mildew on crop,” says Dixon. “The worst thing that can happen because of this loose correlation is all of a sudden organic pesticides get cracked down on as much as nonorganic pesticides, and it ties the farmers’ hands; they can’t spray anything organic. That opens it up to GMO cropping.”

A company like Monsanto could hypothetically come in with genetically modified plants that are inherently resistant to pests and outcompete small farmers lacking the same resources, Dixon fears.
Instead of relying only on azadirachtin, outdoor Mendocino farmer Justin Calvino (a board member of the California Growers Association) suggests diversifying pest management strategies. Instead of using neem oil or a derivative, farmers can use good insects to kill the bad ones. To defend against pests, Calvino suggests not only a clean environment and castor oil soaps, but also other plant-based nutrients like grape seed oil or olive oil. Even so, he admits, “if you’re concentrating it to the level you’re seeing it being concentrated, people are getting sick.”

So while there may be no conclusive answer for the cannabis industry and consumers alike regarding what biological dynamics cause cannabis hyperemesis syndrome yet, what arguably holds back deeper medical research is the plant’s prohibited status under federal law. Until marijuana can be scientifically studied without onerous legal roadblocks, health issues like this will be continually debated by users, cultivators, and regulators in canna-legal states.

As for Kaley-Dolan, she says once she’s completely healed from her cannabis hyperemesis syndrome, she wants to grow her own weed. “I still have a hard time eating, and I still take a lot of baths, but I haven’t been sick in about [two months] now and I’m continuing to make a lot of progress,” she says. “I had no idea I was chasing my tail for literally two years. Once it’s legal to grow my own, I should just do that so I know 100 percent what’s in it. I just want to feel safe on that side of things.”

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lol that’s a damn shame. I’ll stick to growing my own without spraying anything at all on my plants except water while they’re in the cloner, and using absolutely no pesticides. It’s pretty easy to avoid bugs if you are careful about what you introduce into your room… Granted with the large scales grows this is hard to avoid, but all the more reason for people to grow their own.

I had one case of spider mites like 5 years ago, only issue I’ve ever had other than a few gnats here and there a few years ago when I got new soil that were controlled with sticky traps.

It practically grows itself if you have half a brain :joy:

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Bro they SPRAY that shit all over EVERYTHING in Colorado and brag about how their cannabis doesn’t have pesticides… :man_shrugging::sweat_smile:

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lmao the perks of living in a non legal state are starting to outweigh the perks of living in a legal state :joy: :rofl:

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Legal states tend to have better genetics

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isn’t that the truth! Everything I run comes from breeders in CA or CO, so many dank strains everywhere.

texas and florida have a few nice strains too like chinatsu, shoreline, and triangle kush

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we got some crazy old school hazes and cool ass sours here in FL too. People forget so fast that Florida ran shit in the 80s and 90s. If you think that all disappears overnight…your dead wrong.

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Miami has really good weed. Cubans are pretty good at growing indoors at scale

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Here in MIA, people been growing indoors and blowing up houses since the early 90’s. Literally like every other house was a grow house down here as i was going to school and growing up down here.

Not just Cubans, but the whole latin community has been growing dank in Miami before many states even knew what the word meant. What i like about here…is just about half of the city has moved west, and now sends back all their work which has just made the bomb local weed just dirt cheap. Herb in Miami is just as cheap as any legal market. maybe not as cheap as OR or WA but certainly cheaper than any east coast legal state. LOL

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It’s the same in central florida with outdoors and greenhouse. Palm Beach and Broward have massive issues unfortunately with FPL and the Tri County task force. The research chemical craze was all due to overzealous policing and heavy penalties open a vacuum in the market for spice, bath salts and flocks.

So not all of florida has the dank. Ft myers and the surrounding area consumed chinese square packs for above 2k well into 2017. Broward and palm beach swear by low quality bud as well, a whole bunch of black ashes and vomitting to be had :rofl:

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Pretty much why you only see miami black haze and our sour d cut on my instagram. Cause these cuts have been around forever. Been smoking black haze now for like 30 years.

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Gotta love Miami!

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I have been suffering with CHS about a year. Sometimes relieved by hot showers…and then nothing for months. Personally I tend to think chemicals used to grow pot are the blame. Otherwise Jamaica would be over run with this syndrome. II realize this is going to be an anecdotal experience BUT after going to the ER with intractable pain. I was given a shot of Bentyl it took the pain from a 9.5 to a 5 and they sent me home. I could not sleep on 5 pain and was up all night. the next day my pain was a 3 . And the purpose of this post is to share what cured me in 2 hrs. I tried 2 gabapentin and the pain was totally gone. I think this syndrome is a irritated nerve and perhaps hot water does thwe same effect on nerve pain but Gagapentin will stop it. I will not smoke again for awhile and certainly no more gummies (which I was taking 4-5 a day. In conclusion if this syndrome hits you Bentyl, and anti nausea meds, and most importantly Gabapentin. ER’s and hospitals have no clue and worst of all there is a system wide belief that you dont give pain meds for ABD pain. Do yourself a favor if this syndrome hits you suggest in a non pushy way (Dr’s are touchy about being told what to do) that it has been suggested that Gabapentin might help. Good Luck I wonder if washing the pot with warm water and the drying it out. I don’t know if it is the chemicals but I had a suspician since day one that it was not THC but some other agent. And if all growers are using chemicals …Probably that is the cause…Good Luck