It is not sustainable. If (big if) we get broader legalization in the states, nobody is going to buy $70 ‘hemp’ gummies from tommy Chong. It is just another fleeting wave…enjoy it while you can
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That’s exactly what I said. Again, this has nothing to do with the fact that CURRENTLY if you aren’t making more money every month you are doing it wrong. The market is booming. You don’t even have to over charge. The demand is immense.
Licensed operators mad they didn’t think of it first
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I’m not really sure that is the case. I’ve been working in both spaces for years now. In general - unless you had really deep pockets (I mean like REALLY DEEP) you do not have the opportunity to do both as your business. The people doing this on both sides are already established cannabis companies who are looking at the “no enforcement” side of hemp and thinking I’d like to try that and sometimes succeeding.
The other people - never dabbled in the licensed space to begin with. I was never in that boat - as I started in licensed operations before the Farm Bill came around. And for sure, once it was here, I planted acres and did the work. Including conversions and trying GMO plants and all kinds of stuff.
But in the end - what I saw and what I continue to see - unregulated operators are doing fuck all to prevent consumer harms. And I mean that when I say it. Its the worst part of the unregulated market because people are hurting people and they either don’t care or don’t understand.
Sure I want access for everyone (and I actively lobby and work towards those regulatory and legislative changes basically every day) but I’m also in a place where I’m still getting calls from hospitals about teenagers getting really sick and needing surgery (at least no one has died this year…)
And I’m being called to testify about methods and the like - for how are things possible and still remaining legal (hint hint - they are not - under current FDA rules). And that’s always frustrating because quite honestly, no one seems interested in making sure kids have access to medicine anymore.
Now its just about getting people as high as possible and cheaply as possible. And while that is all well and good for some folks. I’m here to make sure my wife has access to the plant to combat the symptoms of her MS. And right now hemp adulterated products throughout Michigan are making it so she does not have access to SAFE VAPES.
And quite honestly - that fucking pisses me off. So now I have to make all those fuckers at home again. Like I didn’t move my whole family away from Kansas to make sure my wife had access. And now she doesn’t have access because bad actors are putting pesticides and diluents and all kinds of hemp conversion oil into Vape carts.
So its a damn good thing that I grow a fuckton of weed for her. And that we have the tools to get that into her without smoking which can cause other issues with her MS.
So I’m pissed - because those of us playing by the rules (aka no cannabis derived stuff in food, cosmetics, or combination drugs like vapes) are getting left behind by the dollars of people not playing by the rules.
And if they were playing by the rules - they wouldn’t be making billions because there would be less risk and bigger players would be involved.
So yeah - is it a choice not to participate in this gray market - you bet it is. But fuck all that noise that we didn’t think of it first We sure fucking did and we thought clearly and concisely that it was WRONG to put untested semi-synthetic products into people’s lungs. And we expected the FDA to enforce against people putting it in food, cosmetics, and combination products (and they are, there are DOZENS of warning letters).
That’s not my jam. Its so not my jam that I don’t do it. And if that means leaving millions on the table - so be it.
Just like I don’t use pesticides. And just like I don’t diluent my vapes. And just like I remind people all the time that weed isn’t just about THC. -shrug-
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As a result of consuming intoxicating hemp? Or as a result of buying a low-quality product because its what they can afford/being underaged/failing to do their own research?
THC to the people, all of it. Caveat emptor.
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Yes - consuming intoxicating hemp. I have no evidence to indicate that products were of low-quality, in many cases they appeared to be of high cost being sold in boutique hemp stores. They are all underage except one so far - but in all cases there were no age-gated rules in the states where the youth resided, so not technically “underage” if there is no age gate rule in place.
And I’m not sure about the research side. In most cases, I’m talking to hospitals, doing research on ingredients, seeing if we already have the brand on the list and test results from previous stuffs.
And while I 100% believe in THC to the people (even kids!) sometimes what I’m finding is not THC at all - but something similar. 
And I’d love to say that it wasn’t causing issues at the legal and legislative levels - but as far as I can tell, people looking to make a quick buck and not worrying about the consequences to the rest of us are selling bad bad boof - and people are going to hospital.
I hardly ever get calls about elders having issues anymore - maybe because we did enough guerilla education that they got wise and stopped using products with their poly-pharmacy issues. But I was having A LOT of them last year. People fainting/falling, people having heart attacks, people having bronchial issues which lead to pneumonia/hospitalizations.
Such is life in the wild wild west I suppose. I just wish people would be a little more… careful? Caring about others? Caring about the consequences? Caring about the potential law enforcement backlash? Caring about the impending changes to take us back to the stone age, if the prohibitionists get their way?
Frustrates me. And really - really pisses me off that people contaminated the licensed market in Michigan with god knows what. Because it is forcing me to spend more time and energy making sure my wife is okay. Time I could be spending on legalization! And fixing regulatory issues! And limiting the tax burden on cannabis facing citizens. -pfft-
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I really vibe with what you say about Boof being sold in the hemp space, it is. However, I reckon a lot of these reports of fainting or hospitalizations are due to taking too much THC with a preexisting condition…I think as legalization occurs you are just going to see more and more of this. That and people just having a panic attack, remember the guy who called 911 because he ate the brownies? I have only heard on a handful, under 5, instances of actually toxic material killing someone and that wasn’t the delta 8, it was whatever residuals or cuts were being used.
It is not immoral to sell these THCs, they were not untested. D8 has been studied for decades. As well as the millions who have now tried it with only a handful of hospitalizations, is actually proved to be really safe in terms of drugs. It was immoral to pump it out as fast as possible. But you know why that was possible? Because the demand was OVERWHELMING due to the over regulation of the cannabis market keeping national supply low. If the market had developed under “free” circumstances from the beginning and not been pay to play then these local artisanal markets would already have developed, or at least full accessibility to monolithic but safe brands would have emerged. Just like alcohol. When prohibition ended and the market developed people stopped drinking bathwater moonshine, which yes, got people sick. But the problem isn’t the inferior products in the market, it’s the fact that people still want to buy them because the demand is so high. Until that is addressed it’s not going to change and anyone who argues otherwise I don’t believe is participating in good faith, because if it’s not the hemp market it’d be the black market, and wasn’t that kind of harm reduction what y’all argued for in the first place to get your license and change the laws?
The demand needs to be solved for. It was not immoral for the hemp industry to do that, despite what Tommy Chong is doing. More regulation will not solve this, people want medicine.
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Yes we do!
We also want cheaper building materials, clothes, and bio-fuel options sourced from more regenerative and sustainable practices. All the new hemp operators popping up are just growing rec cannabis and selling the same old stuff (at ridiculous prices, mind you, $20 for a 1g “THCa Hemp” pre-roll.) and telling people they can smoke that publicly, right on the sidewalk in their little town in Georgia. Telling people it’s completely legal.
Just for context, I went to Helen, GA the other day and bought a joint for that price and was told I could smoke it right there or anywhere in the town. They also ship THCa/D8 to other states that “DON’T restrict” those cannabinoids (ie. states that haven’t legalized cannabis). I wonder what would have happened if I lit up that joint right on the sidewalk with several cops patrolling the streets. I wonder, if a cop apprehended me and decided to send my little joint to testing analysis, if the D9-THC would be under 0.3% (doubt it). I wonder who would be held liable in that moment.
I’m not even going to mention the peddling of converted cannabinoids without proper research, for the sake of profit. Suffice it to say, I agree with Cas that the consumer cannabis industry has been far removed from the original cause and goal, to essentially compete with the pharmaceutical industry (or work together) to provide greater access to alternative sources of medicine for all ages. Unfortunately, America runs off corporate greed, and the lives of the consumer mean nothing to those that own the means of production.
Also, don’t get me wrong, I’m down with everyone being able to smoke joints on the sidewalk like cigarettes, but I think it’s immoral to tell people it’s completely legal and push out alternative cannabinoids in the name of “increased demand.” when the former isn’t true and the latter is produced in vacuous fashion.
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Yeah, customers should know it’s a loophole and then decide where they want to consume it. Smoking marijuana in public is not legal in most places either so no difference. It’s really silly people are complaining about this when they alternative is no access to cannabinoids. If that’s truly the mission then why are you against that? Same as every gray market that came before. Also many of these cannabinoids have been studied for decades. I’ll agree we need proper testing but again millions of people have used d8 at this point. It’s pretty safe. Maybe the new THC88deltax100 needs to be studied, but really, have we even found any of these with an ld50 of any reasonable concern?
The market wants THC, not industrial materials or CBD flower… It’s pretty clear. Not sure how you can argue with the increased demand… The numbers on the chart go up
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There are a few synthetics with LD50’s of concern. They are also way more intoxicating and not terribly easy to make (at least from reading the journals about them…)
But sure - the real thing I’m worried about is people not talking to their doctors AND/OR not knowing what they are getting because companies mislabelling, etc.
Looks like the supreme court is going to hear the case where a truck driver was injured and lost his job because his CBD product had WAY TOO MUCH THC in it. So those rules which allow people to basically not label cannabinoid contents hopefully will change.
There’s an ASTM standard for labeling cannabinoids intoxicating and otherwise - if people started following that, we’d be a little closer to my happy place.
I fucking hate it when I buy broccoli and it turns out to be collard greens - you know? Same kind of consumer transparency that we expect for basically everything else. Cannabis should be no different.
Access is seriously important. When legislators ask me why people do this, I tell them the same thing - they always have and they always will. Cannabis is medicine and people want it bad enough to get it from whoever will give it to them, damn the consequences!
I really worry about polypharmacy issues but that’s legit a reason to be educating people (which we really don’t like to do!) not to take access away.
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I think it’s disingenuous and extremely unfair to expect the average consumer to understand the loophole that these companies are operating around. Especially, when considering the flagrant false advertising surrounding most cannabinoids and their legality. You can’t expect the consumer to know better when these establishments market those products under a false pretense without educating them on the actual legality and underlying consequences.
The introduction of converted cannabinoids to the broader market is, in my opinion, a great example of artificial increase in demand. The average consumer in illegal states were asking for truly legal cannabinoids like THC and it’s natural precursors. I highly doubt the average consumer knew the existence of D8, D10, HHC, THCp, etc. when they were introduced to their local markets. They’re not giving people what they’re demanding, they’re giving consumers unnecessary alternatives they never knew about. When it’s the only thing available, people will buy it. It seems more like predatory marketing rather than satisfying an increase in demand.
On the topic of THCa hemp, companies are falsifying testing analysis by sending in premature harvests to ensure batches come back under .3% D9. The actual batches that are rolled out are well above their legal limits, which is downright fraudulent and harms the consumer more than anyone else if they’re caught.
My issue isn’t with the ld50 of the converted cannabinoids themselves, although more intensive research wouldn’t hurt. My issue is with unskilled operators simply purchasing SOPs and manufacturing converted compounds without proper technique, introducing potentially harmful contaminants to the end product. Combine that with the previously stated falsification of testing analysis, and you have something very dangerous. There’s a clear wanton disregard for consumer health and education.
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You mean folks like this?
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@terplord420 None of that requires higher scheduling or making illegal. Demand developed when the customer figured out they existed and were legal, how could that have transpired beforehand? It’s a loophole but the products are still legal. Customers should keep proof of legality and not use them in public. Same as any legal state. Maybe tests are being fibbed by the USDA but realistically a customer isn’t going to get the flack for that. If they get pulled over or smoke in front of a cop and they say “hey I got this on packaging that says this is legal from XYZ.” The customer is protected in that case. Most officers accept that these products are legal, because they are. If they are grown illegally in another state that doesn’t change the fact that it is federally legal as a finished product.
I get where you’re coming from, but I talk to people every day who are thankful for the option. Many have stopped going to dispensaries because they have found quality THCa or HD9 gummies.
Like you said, if it’s available people will buy it. So how about we solve for the demand and increase quality with open competition rather than locking this plant behind more regulation and forcing folks to “do it anyways” as Cassin said. We wouldn’t have this problem if there was more supply, just like people wouldn’t be doing fentanyl if heroin was less expensive. The lowest common denominator often rises to the top in an illegal market, with weed being kind of an exception…AKA people like that fire… But we could easily stop the gas station hemp made from those unskilled and unsafe operators from being chosen by the general public if we provided fire hemp products at the same price which is possible. Rather than outlaw it and send people to a delta 8 black market dumpster diving from closed down CBD stores why don’t we just say, “hey, these are legal now, here are some general packaging guidelines that are societally accepted in many other industries, make some better products for people and get your shit together.” If the FDA or GRAS thing happens the regulations are going to be so crazy they put 99% out of business, creating a supply gap, leading to people turning to a black market.
@Cassin agree with everything you said, except I’m not concerned about synthetics. They shouldn’t be sold, they aren’t legal. In theory I think all drugs should be legal, but we aren’t ready for that as a society.
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Yes it s disturbing to say the least
D9 liter usa Made
Chock full of aluminium hydroxide
5 th sample bottle in 2 months that’s
NOT for human consumption
Most have the fraudulent aluminium bottle so buyer can not see content
But this one didn’t care
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