Offical HydroBuddy thread

[Ralf]

Now that the author of everyone’s favorite nutrient formation software, HydroBuddy, Dr. Daniel Fernandez, P.h.D (@danielfp) has joined Future4200, we need an official HydroBuddy thread

Welcome, Daniel!

I foresee this thread as a place to discuss HydroBuddy’s use, submit feature requests to Daniel (maybe with a poll to help him gauge interset), and share recipes. And perhaps most importantly, for newbies to become confident with its use and in custom nutrient formulation by asking questions from those of us with formulation experience who have used it for years.

For those living under a rock or giant THCa , you can read about (and download) HydroBuddy here, Daniel’s background and mission here, his consultation services here, and book time with him here.

Daniel has “a bachelor’s degree in chemistry and a masters and Ph.D. in nanoscience and nanotechnology.” But he must have missed the class on spelling , unless he has a “masters” degree instead of a “master’s” degree .

He has a fantastic blog here, which:

[…] attempts to educate people about hydroponics and the many scientific aspects of this type of plant culture. Through my posts I attempt to share my knowledge about hydroponics and the way plants work as well as how to prepare your own solutions, additives and growing systems for your hydroponic crops. As a chemist I have acquired an in-depth understanding of how things work within a hydroponic crop and I will do my best to share this knowledge with as many people as possible.

And he also makes fantastic videos for his YouTube channel, and he often posts relevent publihsed reserach and useful infomration on his IG @science_in_hydropoincs.

To kick off this thread, I will post one HydroBuddy feature request, one usage tip for substance database entry, two questions, and one comment on HydroBuddy version 1.99:

[Ralf]

Feature request and poll:

Include an option to enter density for liquids within the Substances Database

EDIT: Request denied.

[Ralf]

@Ralf

one usage tip for substance database entry, two questions, and one comment on HydroBuddy version 1.99

Usage tip:

You’re not limited to fertilizers. You can enter any substance you want to use into HydroBuddy as long as it has a guaranteed analysis (GA). I use HydroBuddy to formulate nutrient solution recipes, seed-soak recipes, foliar spray recipes, and IPM root drench recipes.

For example, I enter surfactants (like Tweens and Capsil), biostimulants (like glycerol, fulvic acid, and humic acid), elicitors (like yeast extract and chitosan oligosaccharide), and IPM products (like Regalia and TKO Maxx [a liquid phosphite product]).

When entering non-nutritive substances, those without macro-or-micronutrients, enter their active ingredient (a.i.) GA as (an) element(s) and record the element(s) in the substance’s title. For example, in the next screenshot, I entered the surfactant (AquaGro L) a.i. (ethoxylated polyoxypropylene) as chloride (Cl).

When I want to formulate a stock solution or ‘direction addition’ solution with the surfactant, I enter my target ppm (mg/L) in the Cl data field as so:

Note this is a screenshot of v1.8. In later versions, liquid substances are reported by mL (because they’re listed by GA W/V), not gram:

When formulating solutions with fertilizers and non-nutritive substances, you need to use a two-step process if the fertilizer contains elements that you used for your non-nutritive substances. For example, you want to make a solution with a non-nutritive substance containing fulvic acid (FA) and humic acid (HA). But you used nitrate (NO3) for the FA % and ammonium (NH4) for the HA %, and you want to include an ammonium nitrate fertilizer.

In that case, you need to calculate them separately because the ammonium nitrate fertilizer contains the same elements you used for your non-nutritive substance. You can first calculate the amount of ammonium nitrate you need for 1 gallon, recording the results. Then you can calculate the amount of the non-nutritive substance you need for the same 1 gallon, recording the results. Finally, you would list both results when you jot down the recipe for the single gallon of soution.

Quesitons:

1. @danielfp, I noticed you just released v1.100. What did you change from v1.99?
2. Will you please include a changelog with each new release? You used to include them up until v1.5, I believe.

Comment:

With v1.99, @danielfp added a tissue analysis feature and WUE (water use efficiency) field. The blog post rhetorically asks “How do I figure out the WUE?”

My answer for people without a whole-plant gas chamber is a plant sap flow meter. A quality HDF-type plant sap flow meter can be found here.

However, now that Bruce Bugbee is installing a few whole-plant chambers in his lab to study whole-plant cannabis photosynthetic response to stimuli, I’m sure he will make WUE data available. And if we ask nicely, he may share those data early, without making us wait for a published study or white paper.

[danielfp]

Thanks for the suggestion! This used to be the way the program worked but it generated a ton of confusion. After years of having it configured that way, I would still get weekly messages from people confused about how it worked and would see examples pop up on youtube frequently of people using this completely wrong.

If you have a liquid that gives composition in W/W% terms, then the intended usage is for you to use W/W and then just weigh the liquid instead of measuring a volume.

Because of my experience with asking for density, HB will not go back to this method of doing things. In HB’s current setup, the logic is simple, if you have something in W/V you check that box and measure that thing’s volume, if you have something in W/W then you measure that thing’s weight.

[danielfp]

1. You can always check for changelogs in the github commits (https://github.com/danielfppps/hydrobuddy).

2. Some releases just include a few bug fixes so it’s not worth it to write an entire blog post or modify the original post to describe this.

One thing I would like to note is that “guaranteed analysis” of fertilizers is often wrong - especially for cannabis specific fertilizers - so using label data to figure out nutritional contributions for any fertilizer is very likely to be wrong for everything but pure raw inputs. Read this post for more information on how wrong labels can be for fertilizers (https://scienceinhydroponics.com/2021/02/differences-between-labels-and-actual-composition-values-in-commercial-hydroponic-fertilizers.html).

[Ralf]

@danielfp

If you have a liquid that gives composition in W/W% terms, then the intended usage is for you to use W/W and then just weigh the liquid instead of measuring a volume.

Because of my experience with asking for density, HB will not go back to this method of doing things. In HB’s current setup, the logic is simple, if you have something in W/V you check that box and measure that thing’s volume, if you have something in W/W then you measure that thing’s weight.

That’s too bad. But I understand many people emailing you would get annoying.

I understand how you intended HB to be used for solid or liquid W/W GA substances. But the phrasing for the tick box is what I find a bit confusing because it seems to imply liquids should be entered as W/V: “Add substance in mL and input composition as %W/V”

Also, anyone who uses W/V and wants to prepare large or very small volume solutions with a high degree of accuracy would generally need to find the density of any liquids and convert from volume to weight for measurement anyway.

Where can I find compiled and source code of older version releases? I previously looked on Github, but the source is for the current version.

@danielfp

1. You can always check for changelogs in the github commits (https://github.com/danielfppps/hydrobuddy).

2. Some releases just include a few bug fixes so it’s not worth it to write an entire blog post or modify the original post to describe this.

One thing I would like to note is that “guaranteed analysis” of fertilizers is often wrong - especially for cannabis specific fertilizers - so using label data to figure out nutritional contributions for any fertilizer is very likely to be wrong for everything but pure raw inputs. Read this post for more information on how wrong labels can be for fertilizers (https://scienceinhydroponics.com/2021/02/differences-between-labels-and-actual-composition-values-in-commercial-hydroponic-fertilizers.html).

I’m aware the changelog is on Github, but it hasn’t been updated since v1.5. And I noticed you add individual notes for some changes you make to various files, but that’s not the same thing as keeping a changelog. Plus, making users go to Github to find a changelog isn’t the best practice for software development.

I understand if you don’t want to be bothered with maintaining and building a changelog with new binaries and source code releases. I asked because I have a background in software dev, and it’s expected that open source software will include a changelog. For example, I still run v1.8 because I like using the density feature, and nothing in the more recent releases has spurred me to update. But without a changelog, I won’t know if I should update or not.

That’s a good note about guaranteed analysis for people who aren’t aware. I test all nutrient substances I use, including salts from Haifa, Yara, ICL, et al.

[danielfp]

Thanks for your reply!

You are right in that I need to update the github changelog (I honestly forgot it existed ). I will make a note to update that when the next release comes out.

About previous versions, you can rollback changes in github to go back to previous releases if you wish. There are no stored previous version sources though.

I would like to make a point to use v1.100, because previous versions do have some important bugs and miss some important features. Recent versions have also included things like tissue analysis, improved on the EC prediction models and have reordered nutrients to be more in-line with the order most people are familiar with.

There are also some important new features that are planned for up coming releases. Blog posts about them will come out as I finish their coding.

[HuartzBanger]

Waiting you to reply from the wrong account lol

[Ralf]

Thanks for updating the changelog! I know it’s not too important, and I don’t want to increase your workload. It would have been OK if you decided not to update it at all. But I’m grateful for your understanding and willingness to listen to your userbase

Regarding version history and feature updates:

I am aware of the new features like your empirical EC testing for improved EC prediction (which is freaking sweet and impressive, btw!). And I knew about the tissue analysis feature, although I assume, it is ineffective without accurate cannabis WUE values. I wasn’t aware you made important bug fixes in v1.100 - that is definitely a reason for me to update.

I don’t use the EC prediction feature when formulating, so I didn’t feel the need to update HB. I found the EC prediction was not particularly accurate for my formulations. Mainly because, as you noted in your blog post about the new EC prediction, your empirical testing was limited to a few salts.

I base my recipes on ppm and then measure EC once I make the solutions. I don’t care about solution EC nearly as much as elemental ppm. When mixing large batches, I use EC (and RI, pH, and density) as QC benchmarks. I believe most growers’ reliance on solution EC isn’t wise. Mainly because on forums, they compare the EC of completely different solutions and think if they copy the EC of grower X they will get the same results.

Another reason I haven’t updated HB is without accurate WUE values for cannabis, the tissue analysis-nutrient profile feature seems ineffective. But now that Bruce Bugbee is installing a few whole-plant gas chambers to study cannabis, I anticipate he will establish reliable WUE values. Which I assume will improve the HB tissue analysis-nutrient profile feature.

• Will the method used to calculate WUE affect the accuracy of HB’s new feature? (I suspect it will.)
• Do you prefer a specific WUE calculation method for use in HB?

I was hesitant to upgrade because I have customized my substance database to include what I use and remove most default substances. And I didn’t want to go through the hassle of manually editing the substances db every time a new version is released. I thought about dropping my substance db into the binary dir for each new release. But I was concerned about breaking the new version. And until today, I didn’t realize you included made important bug fixes, so I didn’t feel a need to update.

• Can I drop in my substances_win.dbf file from v1.8 into the binary dir for v1.100, replacing the default file?

@danielfp

There are also some important new features that are planned for upcoming releases. Blog posts about them will come out as I finish their coding.

Awesome! I look forward to them!

Thank you for your dedication and maintenance of HB! I’m going to donate to your Paypal account. And once our new facility is running, I’ll get the CEO to donate a few grand considering the value we obtain from your software.

[Ralf]

@danielfp is kind enough to share HydroBuddy with everyone, maintaining his amazing blog, plus make fantastic videos on his YouTube channel - all for free

Do you use his software or otherwise gain value or knowledge from his efforts? If so, you can help support his ongoing work by donating:

Donate to Daniel Fernandez

Daniel: Are these tax deductible donations?

[danielfp]

Thanks for your reply and kind words Ralf

About the EC models. There are two EC prediction modules, one is the empirical one, the second is called LMCv2, which uses a state of the art method for EC prediction (https://scienceinhydroponics.com/2021/03/improving-on-hydrobuddys-theoretical-conductivity-model-the-lmcv2.html). This method replaced the much less accurate default method in v1.9. You might want to give it a shot to see if it works better for you.

I agree EC is not useful to compare between solutions with different chemistries and in the end experimental determination of the EC is the only way to go if you want to know what the EC of your solutions is.

About WUE. As defined in the software, it is the grams of tissue grown per liter of water transpired by the plant. To figure it out you need to be able to weigh total plant mass and to be able to quantify the amount of water transpired by the plant in a chamber where gas exchange is controlled and monitored. Anything but a direct method of measuring WUE will carry significant inaccuracies with it.

Bruce has already measured WUE for cannabis (although this is not published yet). I can tell you most plants will be in the 3-6g/L region. The WUE for cannabis will depend heavily on your level of enrichment and defoliation, so it is likely that what Bruce has measured won’t apply well to everyone. I talk with Bruce frequently so I’m always very up to date on his group’s research progress.

Note that to know the WUE is really not necessary to use the HB feature. The tissue analysis tells you the ratios you need, you then prepare a solution assuming a given WUE (say 3.5 g/L) then if the solution EC increases, then you know you overestimated the WUE, if it decreases a lot, then you underestimated it. An ideal - in terms of lowest plant stress and most efficient nutrient usage- is likely reached when you have a slowly decreasing EC solution.

It is also worth considering that growing plants using this tissue+WUE technique is limited to plants in recirculating setups and to plants where leaf tissue is the main thing you’re growing. If you’re growing fruits or cannabis flowers, then the composition of the flower becomes a main target and you would need to know the mineral composition of the flower and then also compensate for the difference in evaporation between the leaves and the flower tissue.

The solutions also do not steering at all - the technique aims for absolute minimum stress - so I don’t envision it to be very useful in the cannabis space.

About the DB file. Yes, unzip the latest release in a new folder, then you can take all your old dbf files and replace all the ones in the current folder. It should keep all your data. Keep a backup in case anything goes wrong. There have been no DB structure changes, so all files should be compatible between v1.8 and v1.100. Make sure to copy ALL of them though.

Also thanks a lot for offering to donate, any donation helps support HydroBuddy’s development .

[AgTonik]

I didn’t know about the SIH Youtube channel. Thanks for the heads up @Ralf .

Also, I have to transfer my custom database, but there’s no need to compile the Linux port of Hydrobuddy. Super.

[danielfp]

The donations are not tax deductible, these are directly made to my name (as I don’t have any non-profit setup around HydroBuddy). I receive normally around 50 USD per year in these donations - which I am very grateful for - but that doesn’t seem worth the hassle to setup a foundation around.

[danielfp]

I also don’t know how many of you guys participated in the Utah State University online Cannabis course that was started last year by Bruce Bugbee (I recorded several lectures for this), this year I will include a lot more content around HydroBuddy, low cost nutrient preparation, organic hydroponic growing and possibly a lecture on low cost data logging using Arduinos.

I will be going to Bruce’s lab in August to record the new lectures.

There are going to be a lot of new and updated lectures from the other lecturers as well (a lot of new science in the last year around cannabis!). I will post a link in this thread as soon as the new course links are out in case any of you are interest in taking it again or for the first time.

[Ralf]

@danielfp

The donations are not tax deductible, these are directly made to my name (as I don’t have any non-profit setup around HydroBuddy). I receive normally around 50 USD per year in these donations - which I am very grateful for - but that doesn’t seem worth the hassle to setup a foundation around.

Well, this year you’ll get a lot more than $50

I assume we can write it off as an R&D expense. Will confirm with the CFO.

[anon56994712]

Just donated 20, I havent used the program lately but a long time ago I did. Happy to have you here

[AgTonik]

A customer just had one of their best flower cycles yet for yield with LED, CO2 and following VPD using Hydrobuddy.

Transition and first 4 weeks of flower, the K:Ca:Mg was 4:2:1. The calcium content was higher than total nitrates. Iron was 1.5 with micro complex (Plant Prod, I believe), but both are provided additionally in our marine-sourced fulvic acid deposit. It is roughly Howard Resh’s first cluster tomato recipe. They got 59g/sq. ft. or 1.4 grams per watt. It’s a shame they don’t allow phones/pictures, but they are a clean suit facility.

EDIT: The brix was 10-11, right around the point that the plant naturally resists bugs and mold. Their run was SMOOOOTH sailing.

[Ralf]

@danielfp

The donations are not tax deductible, these are directly made to my name (as I don’t have any non-profit setup around HydroBuddy). I receive normally around 50 USD per year in these donations - which I am very grateful for - but that doesn’t seem worth the hassle to setup a foundation around.

I’m trying to donate $100 now, but Paypal doesn’t like my company card (it keeps rejecting me because it wants a human name). Is there a seperate donation page for Paypal that will let me donate with the company name? If not, I assume I can get a prepaid card using my company card and donate that way.

@danielfp

I talk with Bruce frequently so I’m always very up to date on his group’s research progress.

Get him on here! He can even take the username @badbruce lol

If he doesn’t want to join the best forum in the world , I wonder if he would be open to an interview with our resident mom and fantastic human, @Sidco_Cat, on her podcast, Chat with Sidco_Cat ? And for that matter, I think you would be an excellent interview for her as well

[tobor]

So people can deploy the software themselves? Are you currently or do you plan to offer this as a service?

[Ralf]

Side note @danielfp, which I think may interest Bruce and yourself:

I’m working with Growlink to integrate Bruce’s research-grade horizontal field of view IRR from Apogee. I designed the concept and method Growlink is implementing, and I developed a new method to calculate air and plant VPD, which I shared with Growlink two days ago. They have been in talks with Apogee’s engineers for a few weeks, and Growlink received its first IRR last week. They should have integration completed within a few weeks.

I plan to use the IRRs for real-time canopy surface temperature (CST) measurements, which Growlink will datalog, graph, and report. But, the main reason is so Growlink can use the IIR measurements to calculate what I term canopy-VPD (i.e., leaf-VPD but integrating a wide CST measurement). I will input my setpoint canopy-VPD into Growlink based on my target canopy temp (78’F or 80’F). Growlink will then increase or decrease RH using my foggers and dehumidifies to maintain my target canpoy-VPD independent of the canopy air temperature. So, canopy-VPD and canopy air temperature are the independent variables, and RH is the dependent variable.

As far as I know, this will be the first commercial implementation of RH control based on VPD when accounting for leaf/flower surface temperature using real-time research-grade IRR sensors.

Last Friday, I developed the most accurate method to calculate canopyVPD to date. I am using a new formula for saturated vapor pressure (SVP) over water published in 2018. That uses the Clausius-Clapeyron equation and is based on the seminal SVP formula proposed by Magnus in 1844. The mean relative error (MRE) is only 0.0005% from 0’C-40’C. While the current method to calculate air and canopy VPD used in horticulture (based on Tetens’s equation from 1930) has an MRE of 0.03% from 0’-40’C. In most cases, the measurement error of humidistats and thermoresistors would be greater than the VPD MRE.

Growlink is doing this for me because we’re buying a system from them with 14 H.E. Anderson injectors, a ton of batch tanks, etc. Plus, they want to push the envelope and become the most advanced irrigation and environmental control solution available.

I am writing two different threads here about these topics. First, about my new method to calculate air-VPD and canopy-VPD, including the complete method, and then about my work with Growlink and how I plan to control canpoy-VPD. I should have them posted within a few days.