I haven’t tried it personally. When speaking the product developer I was told it is nearly flavorless. They do offer finished samples with a non-cannabinoid active ingredient. That’s the one way to taste it in a final product it without having to buy a kilo (it’s like $1200/kg).
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I agree. I think they did stability testing up to a couple months, but I’d have to check my email to be sure.
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So benzoic and sorbic acids are clean label, but their sodium and potassium salts are poison?
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Sodium benzoate can be harmful in high doses, but, lots of food products use it as a preservative.
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I prefer using the acids, but the salts are easier to dissolve. Not a big fan of sorbic acid due to pH activity but I have had good results using both at pH 4.2.
Thought I may bump this old thread because I added some content to last night. May be helpful to some people in this thread who haven’t seen this older thread:
I can’t stand the taste of it, it burns my throat.
Did you eat it by itself?
It’s supposed to be diluted to a very small amount, it really doesn’t take much to prevent bacterial growth. Lots of food and beverage companies combine it with ascorbic acid to make stuff shelf stable for years.
Freeze pops are a good example.
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Combining benzoic acid and ascrobic acid can be problematic because in some environments where some metals are present the decarboxylation of benzoic acid by asrobic acid can form benzene. That’s why a stabilizer is often used, like EDTA.
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Yes, very small amount. Can be used at higher amount in stock emulsions that are the diluted down. I have never noticed a taste or burning when using benzoic acid or sodium benzoate at low concentrations.
More than you ever wanted to know about RTD beverage preservation:
From the paper: " Benzoic acid, however, imparts a burning aftertaste while sorbic acid tends to be neutral (13).
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Not disagreeing with you at all. Just pointing out I have used sodium benzoate up to 0.05% in the final drink (beer and juice) and never tasted off flavors, but I also haven’t used it in water alone. I think 0.1% benzoic acid is the max allowed in the US?
1 g of sodium benzoate would theoretically yield about 0.8475g benzoic acid I believe.
That study cited this study from Dryden and Hills (1959), which I cannot find in full text online: Taste thresholds for sodium benzoate and sodium sorbate in apple cider
Here is the best context I could find for the Dryden and Hills study, which seems to indicate they had the sensory panel taste sodium benzoate at quite high concentration (1000 ppm or 0.1%), higher than is needed to prevent microbial growth. Normally around 0.01-0.03% sodium benzoate is needed, especially when used along with sorbic acid or potassium sorbate, and ideal pH for their antimicrobial activity (4.2 or below). Also, some people seem lower taste thresholds:
Publications and Patents of the Eastern Utilization Research Branch
Benzoic acid and sodum benzoate (World Heath Organization) references off-flavor citing Sodium benzoate and benzoic acid by Chipley (1983) in the review Antimicrobials in foods. But, I also couldn’t find full text of Chipley (1983).
My bad. MOQ is 3kg at $1,045/kg (lower cost at scale) and sample cost of finished product is $250. It’s in the flyer I uploaded.
Dude that is nuts. Just buy some lecithin and play around, you can get pretty high purity PC 5kg for <$500 from lipoid.
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I’m not buying it. Just sharing the info.
A suburban Chicago neighborhood picnic in the 70s. The can on the right. The only pop left in the cooler. Throat is burning. A seared in memory from childhood.
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I have a background in nutraceuticals and product formulation and I can emulsify any oil into water or your liquid of choice perfectly with zero effect on flavor using only 100% natural surfactant and emulsifier ingredient.
The key ingredient is one which has not been mentioned at all in this thread.
It’s a secret tho lol
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can you share your knowledge??
pretty please?!
I know this is not the answer you might be hoping for but as someone who has worked extensively on both this topic as well as various forms of nanoparticles synthesis, the reality is there is extreme variability in nanoparticle formation.
The systems I make can repeatedly produce 20 nm particles with an average PDI of .27
However in order to achieve consistent results it’s important to know the HBL of the starting materials for each batch, and adjust accordingly.
Even if all things were repeated constantly from a encapsulated oil/ surfactant system between batches, the physiochemical processesing conditions have to be tightly controlled, otherwise you will still experience a wide amount of varrience in both particle size and efficacy.
To that extent, please don’t assume just because a certain formulation has less taste or greater transparency, that it automatically translates to improved bioavailability or enhanced delivery properties.
Any one with a pipette can use cyclodextrin and produce a relatively tasteless and transparent water soluble system that has high loading content. But it’s bioavailability will be less than normal tinctures.
So the question you should really ask is what is the scope of what you are trying to achieve?
Is it a mild tasting clear solution with higher mg/ml content?
Is this for personal use only, or commercial production where repeatability at scale is of much greater importance?
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could you point us in the direction of HLB values for common cannabinoids? as well as any information on theoretical HLB values of the excess non-cannabinoid ‘oil’ in distillate? also, does anyone in this thread consider this excess oil as part of their surfactant system when formulating?
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