Let’s talk silica

@Ralf

Thanks for all your suggestions for experiments. The resources/time allocated to this is limited, so we need to execute a plan that has already been drafted. We have however already taken the literature you mentioned into account.

Note that we also measured solution viscosity and it increased substantially, so although not fully gelled - likely due to the low Si content - it did seem to gel as much as it could. Sorbitol does seem to prevent this in sulfuric acid solutions.

The very high silicon products are all fundamentally non-aqueous products, which is why Grow-Genius is pH neutral and neither acidic, nor basic. These products are based on the decomposition of TEOS (tetraethylorthosilicate) in solution. However TEOS decomposition tends to quickly generate silica nanoparticles, rather than monosilicic acid. We are not interested in studying TEOS based decompositions at this point. Although I do intend to write a blog post on a TEOS formulation.

The issue with commercial stabilized silicic acid products - and why to my knowledge no researchers use them for trials - is that they contain a bunch of additional things. Power-Si, for example, contains botanical extracts with a lot of additional chemical substances. For these research purposes, commercial silicic acids cannot be used since we need to know exactly what’s present to draw conclusions.

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Hey @danielfp,

I suggested testing commercial products because if they don’t lose monosilicic acid over a week, it shows the glycerol-only formulation is the issue. It seems wise to include formulations with stronger stabilizers (sorbitol, carnitine, choline, etc.) if the glycerol-only formation wasn’t stabilized.

Suppose the solutions with stronger stabilizers also prove to be non-stabilized. In that case, your statement that maybe we can’t “trust the stability of acid stabilized Si solutions just by optical evaluations of them” could be highlighting a major issue.

If you see the same results with the glycerol-only solution, I hope you and Bruce will experiment with different formulations. :pray:

As for stabilizers in commercial products, Siliforce (PEG 400), OSAB (PEG 400), ActiSil (choline), OSA 28 (PEG 400), Fasilitor (PEG 400), Power-SI (PEG 400), and the patent you shared in your first blog post, all contain minimal ingredients and would be a good comparison to your formulation. The patent you shared included data on different sources of silicic acid, various ancillary stabilizers, acids, and primary stabilizers.

As you pointed out, Grow-Genius is the outlier with a different silicon source than all the others. It also includes an organiosilicon surfactant (polyether modified polysiloxane) and a cuticle penetrant (ethoxylated alcohol). So on second thought, I agree it wouldn’t be wise to compare your solutions to Grow-Genius.

Here’s the Power Si Original solution profile that I wrote to you a few weeks ago (only the Bloom version has botanical extracts):

Based on the guaranteed analysis of silicic acid (1.54%) and 0.5 mL/gal (0.559 g/gal) use rate for PowerSi Original, at an average density of 1.11625 g/mL from the SDS, they recommend adding 0.665 ppm as Si. Which, according to the guaranteed analysis, also provides 1.803 ppm urea-N, 1.38 ppm P, 1.104 ppm K, 0.148 ppm B, and 0.015 ppm Mo.

Here’s the formualtion of OSAB, from Shwethakumari & Prakash (2018):
OSAB formulation

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@Ralf We won’t use commercial products as we just don’t know what’s in them. We do have plans to make a PEG-400 stabilized solution for comparing stabilizers, but commercial products just won’t happen here. Regardless of what the patents imply, we just cannot know what concoction of organics got added in there.

The only way I see a lab testing a commercial product would be for that company to finance the study. In terms of basic science, it is not very useful to use something that has unknown composition.

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Fair enough. It’s not necessary to compare your solution to a well defined commercial product if you’re going to test formulations other than glycerol-only. The comparison to a commercial product with a defined solution is helpful if you weren’t going to test anything except glycerol-only.

Although, I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the data from the patent in your first stabilized silicic acid blog post. The author provided gelling time results for silicic acid stabilized with PEG 400, glycerol, other compounds you may be considering, various acids, etc.

I am offering unsolicited advice because, most often, researchers working with cannabis use unrealistic and otherwise poorly designed methods, making their findings questionable. I’m not suggesting you’re doing so, nor are you working with cannabis. Just call me gunshy. The primary culprits tend to be researchers studying cannabis nutrition (@emdub27 amIright? :rofl:).

For reference when you make the PEG 400 solution, in case you missed it, I shared the OSAB formulation from Shwethakumari & Prakash (2018): Effect of foliar application of silicic acid on soybean yield and seed quality under field conditions.

The silicon source is a silicon dioxide hydrate:
OSAB formulation

Here’s the full text from the Indian Society of Soil Science website.

Since 2003, OSAB has been the most often used commercial product for published research on stabilized silicic acid efficacy. I assume because Rexal-Agro welcomes academic research and provides its products without cost.

Dr. Henk-Maarten Laane is the Director of R&D for the mfg of OSAB. I bet he would be interested in your work and may confirm or deny the OSAB formula from Shwethakumari & Prakash (2018). This is his email: hm.laane@rexil-agro.com

Thanks for all your effort! I look forward to reading about your results! :+1:

giphy (24)

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Can someone check my math of my formula
150mL of water
15ml of H2SO4
33ml of 17.3 Si liquid (Si must be SiO2 if its listed as Potassium Silicate ?)
40g carnitine
total ml is 215 as liquid

so 33mL of Si Liquid * 17.3% Si solution / 215ml total volume = 2.7 (this a %?) of Si
and if quoting as Si(OH)4 then 4.2% or is it more like H4SiO4 since its a liquid ?

The Si liquid contains 15.3% K - so 33*15.3 / 215 = 2.3% ?
And Sulfur - H2SO4 contains 32.65% Sulfur so 15ml H2SO4 used in the blend would contain = 4.89ppm? and within the total blend works out to be 0.34% ?

Putting this solution into Hydrobuddy as %W/V?
Direct addition - 1 Liter
Si 20ppm gives 2.5ppm S, 17ppm K
using 0.741ml per litre ?

Thanks, hopefully i have that right.
How much generally for foliar spray

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@DIYGuy

The composition of your solution would be:

2.7% Si as Si
2.3% K
3.4% S

Used at 0.741mL per liter would give you:

20 ppm of Si as Si
25 ppm of S
17 ppm of K

Note, the label of the product says “Silicon (Si) … 17.3%”, so we must assume that is Si expressed as elemental Si, not as SiO2 or Si(OH)4.

About writing either Si(OH)4 or H4SiO4, since silicic acid is named as an acid, H4SiO4 would be formally more correct for all cases. Both are however equivalent when people discuss this.

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Awesome thank you so much Daniel for the quick reply,
If the formula is 17.3% SiO2 would that mean the 2.7 % Si would drop to 1.2%?
I will be next trying to hit the 3.1% Si or 5% H4SiO4 (which would you use in hydrobuddy?)

How did you calculate the 3.4% of S as i got 0.34% so i must of mucked something up,
Molecular mass of H2​SO4​=2+32+(16×4)=98g
Molar mass of S in 1 mole of H2​SO4​=32g
% of S in H2​SO4​=9832​×100=32.65%.

im using 15ml of H2SO4 so 32.65% of that is 4.89 ppm or % ?
and adding to 200ml for a total of 215ml gives me 0.34%.
It did look wrong, if you can point out the step i got wrong.

Appreciate it once again. Glad i got most of the steps correct !

I think we both might be wrong, I thought you had added the H2SO4 by mass.

The molar composition only makes sense in terms of mass, so you need to convert to mass using density.

15mL H2SO4 * (1.840g/mL) = 27.6g of H2SO4 * 32.65% of S = 9.01g of S

9010mg of S/0.215L = 41906ppm = 4.19% of S

So the total contribution from 0.714mL/L would be 31.03ppm of S.

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ok now that makes sense. Thank you for explaining the calculation.

So anytime you use a liquid you must convert it using density first before you can find out the % of element?
So same with carnitine if i wanted to bother calculating how much Cl

I will now make a few batches for stability testing in concentrated form and diluted to 20ppm in a pH of 6.

If i wanted to add sorbitol to my mix would it work synergistically with carnitine? if so what kind of % should i add of sorbitol to the final mixture based off 215ml or the equiv mass in grams ?

Finally is there a way i can be testing the SI content at home using Mo strips or another device? and the plant-available silicon (PAS).

So anytime you use a liquid you must convert it using density first before you can find out the % of element?

Yes, but only when the composition of the liquid is given on a weight/weight basis:

  • In the case of an individual substance, like sulfuric acid, you would use its molecular chemical formula of H2SO4 to find the amount of sulfur within a given quantity of the substance. And because the molecular formula of a substance (liquid or solid) defines its relative elemental composition by the atomic weight by the number of atoms of each of its elements relative to their sum, you need to use the mass (weight) of your substance addition.
    • For example, elementally sulfuric acid (H2SO4) is comprised of two hydrogen (H) atoms, one sulfur (S) atom, and four oxygen (O) atoms; with atomic weights of 1.00794 for H, 32.065 for S, and 15.9994 for O. So, the molar mass (sum of atomic weights by the number of each atom) of sulfuric acid is (1.00794x2)+(32.065*1)+(15.9994x4), giving us 98.0785 grams (per mole of substance). This means the relative elemental composition of sulfuric acid is (2.01588/98.0785x100), (32.065/98.0785x100), and (63.9976/98.0785x100), giving us the relative percentage of each element comprising sulfuric acid on an individual weight/substance weight (as molar mass) basis of 2.0054% H, 32.6932% S, and 65.2514% O.

    • So, to find the amount of sulfur from a quantity of sulfuric acid, the quantity you’re using needs to be in weight, not volume. The same goes for any individual liquid substance. This means that if you’re adding 15 mL of 98% sulfuric acid, as @danielfp wrote, you need to convert the volume to mass using its density of ~1.840 g/mL, giving you 27.6 grams. Then, multiply the mass of sulfuric acid you’re adding (27.6g) by the mass percent of S within sulfuric acid from above (32.6932%), giving you ~8.83g S from your 15 mL. Next, account for the purity of your sulfuric acid (98%) by multiplying your mass of S by the purity of your sulfuric acid as 8.83*0.98, giving you ~8.65g S from your 15 mL of 98% pure sulfuric acid. Next, convert grams S to mg S, and divide by the total solution volume in liters as 8.65x1000/0.215, giving you ~40233 ppm S. And finally, convert ppm to percent by dividing by 10,000, for an S percentage of ~4.02% (w/w) from 15 mL of 98% in 215 mL of solution.

  • Regarding liquid (bottled) fertilizers in the USA, the label gives the elemental percent in weight/weight form. So you need to convert volume to mass, e.g., 10 mL of GH FloraBloom needs to be converted to weight using its density before you find the ppm (mg/L) of its elements in a diluted solution.
    • For example, the density of GH FloraGrow is 1.018 grams per mL. So, 10 mL would weigh ~10.018 grams, as 10x1.018; meaning, for example, if you added 10 mL into 990 mL of water (for a toal of 1 liter of solution), you’re adding 10.018 grams of FlowGrow. And in that case, because 10.018 grams of FloraGrow contains 0.175315 grams of nitrate (NO3), and ppm means milligrams per liter, your solution contains ~175.32 ppm nitrate after converting grams of nitrate to mg of nitrate as 0.175315*1000.

    • However, the math gets a little more involved if we’re talking about the amount of potassium from FloraBloom, for example, because the label reports elemental potassium as potassium oxide (K2O). In this case, you need to refer to the first example, using the molecular formula of potassium oxide (K2O) to find the percent of K and convert the ppm K2O in your solution to K.

So same with carnitine if i wanted to bother calculating how much Cl

No, because L-carnitine HCl is a solid, while sulfuric acid is a liquid. In this case, you would take its molecular formula (C7H16ClNO3) and plug it into a molar mass calculator. Giving you a chlorine (as chloride) mass percent within L-carnitine HCl of 17.9364% Cl.

Then it’s a simple matter of finding the mass (grams) of Cl within your 40 grams of carnitine, as 40x0.179364, giving us ~7.17g of Cl. Next, as above, convert grams to mg and divide by the volume of your solution in liters, as 7.17x1000/0.215, giving us ~33349 ppm of Cl. Finally, convert ppm to percent (33349/10000), giving us ~3.33% Cl.

I will now make a few batches for stability testing in concentrated form and diluted to 20ppm in a pH of 6.

@danielfp wrote he used a pH 6 buffer, so if you’re copying his experiment, you’ll need to make a pH 6 buffer as well. The pH 6 buffer with chemicals your can easily order online and shouldn’t interact with the stabilized silicic acid would probably be a phosphate buffer using high purity anhydrous monosodium phosphate and disodium phosphate (those are analytical grade).

You can use this buffer calculator to find the mass of each salt you’ll need per one liter to create a pH 6 buffer solution. You can read up on making buffer solutions online. I’m not sure what strength should be used. However, I assume 1M would work well, considering the acidity of the silicic acid solution. But defer to whatever @danielfp recommends.

To make a 0.5 L solution of 1 M (1000 mM) pH 6 buffer:

  1. Add 9.906 grams monosodium phosphate to 400 mL of distilled water in a beaker and dissolve.
  2. Then, add 61.59 grams of disodium phosphate and dissolve.
  3. Next, pour the solution into a 500 mL ASTM class A graduated cylinder, rinse the beaker with DI into the graduated cylinder, and top up to 500 mL.
  4. Then pour the solution into a clean beaker (Glade cling wrap works well), cover, and store out of the light.

To use the pH buffer you could make a 500 mL solution of dilute silicic acid:

  1. Add 400 mL of your pH 6 buffer solution to the cleaned and dried graduated cylinder.
  2. Then add your silicic acid and stir with a glass or PTFE stir rod.
  3. Check the pH to ensure it’s 6.0; if not, make individual >1 M solutions of monosodium phosphate as pH down or disodium phosphate as pH, and use them to adjust the pH to 6.0.
  4. Finally, top up to 500 mL using the pH 6 buffer solution.

Finally is there a way i can be testing the SI content at home using Mo strips or another device? and the plant-available silicon (PAS).

PAS = silicic acid (monosilicic or orthosilicic).

Using a colorimetric analysis with the molybdate blue method, you can approximately measure silicon and silicic acid at home if you want to spend some money on an instrument. See D859 Standard Test Method for Silica in Water (ASTM D859-05).

But, it would be best if you kept the phosphate buffer solution below 0.1 M (100 mM) or the silicic acid measurement may be significantly inaccurate; otherwise, use a pH 6.0 acetate buffer.

However, sending a sample to a lab for analysis by ICP-AES (Inductively Coupled Plasma Atomic Emission Spectroscopy) or ICP-MS (inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometry) would be more accurate, simpler, and cheaper for a few one-off tests. I’m sure @danielfp can provide advise on the preferred method for this type of testing.

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(Someone murder me if this is a stupid question/tangent)

Does anyone know anything about potting mixes from Sun Gro like Sunshine Mix #4 that have “RESiLIENCE®” silica added?
https://www.sungro.com/retail-product/sunshine-advanced-mix-4/
Do they just dump in some DE and call it a day?

Would using a MSA supplement be too much in this enriched potting mix?

Again Please delete this and decapitate me if this is a bad/unsuitable question.

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@emdub27 @danielfp

I figured your guys would enjoy this paper if you haven’t seen it yet. It may be time to update Mulder’s chart :slight_smile:

SoilTesting_Fig2

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Not a stupid question, but also one that only took me 4 minutes to resolve by searching for the patent: Wollastonite

Read more here:
US6074988A - Soilless growth medium including soluble silicon

The source of soluble silicon may have a particle size of less than about 840 microns. At least about 80% of the source of soluble silicon may have a particle size less than about 420 microns. At least about 75% may have a particle size less than about 149 microns. At least 25% may have a particle size of less than about 74 microns.

There’s enough wollastonite at a particle range to maintain 20 ppm of Si in the soilless solution. So you wouldn’t need to add another silicon source like stabilizied silicic acid. That said, adding extra silicon as AgSil 16H or stabilized silicic acid wouldn’t hurt.

And adding silicon solubilizing bacteria may be wise:

Number of bacterial strains of genus Bacillus, Pseudomonas, Proteus, Rhizobia, Burkholderia , and Enterobacter are known to release silicon from silicates and promote plant growth.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0981942821003521

Whoa thank you @Ralf ! I did read over the patent but i did not realize it was wollastonite! Thank you Sir! I’m just a humble lurker who loves making medicine for myself and others. I actually work at a boutique “grow shop” and have access to almost anything. I just enjoy the hobby et al. Thank you again.

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Surprised none posted this. Wollastonite will last for months if you don’t over irrigate and wash it out your container. I have been using it for almost 6 months. Agsil 16h had not been been root fed only foliar to make leaf surface less desirable.

Pest free and yield increased about 7% roughly. Our run that’s ending in a few weeks is looking great. Hopefully we hit 3lbs per 16sq ft. Looking for 2.5 - 3 :pray:t5:.

Hit up vansil if your commercial facility. They will give you a 2lb sample free. Plant available in hours if I’m not mistaken once it’s mixed with water and adds that precious calcium we are all looking for.

Actually @danielfp suggested it to me on a YouTube comment earlier in the year.

I use about 1-2 grams per liter of substrate, so in our 2 gallon pots we use about a table spoon or a little more as a top dress. I’m not exact on it any longer because I came across a group that uses 5g per liter of substrate and were hitting 30s on the testing. My reasons for using wollastonite we’re ease, pest management for substrate, and calcium source. I have foliar sprayed wollastonite with agtonik, I saw now ill effects nor did I see any visual benefits. Only a couple times the entire run because I haven’t seen any data on spraying and frankly I’m still learning how to use it. I will say since adding wollastonite to our regiment I have had zero mites, thrips, or nats in coco this year, and I do mean zero. I get clones from other facilities so you can imagine the risk. Bioavailable Silicon_ Release Rate from Additives & Substrates (1) (14).pdf (1.5 MB)

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Outstanding reply, thank you so much for the contribution !!! I have DM’d you.

Has anyone made any further progress in making a stable mono salicylic acid stronger than 1%?

Silica and cannabis have a weird relationship. Weed plants don’t require silica to survive, but if you grant them access to the chemical, it’ll improve almost everything about their physiology. It works to protect them against pests, diseases, and environmental pollutants, while fortifying cell walls against stress and boosting photosynthesis.

Are you just quoting from some seed sites for SEO or something?

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Certainly lifted verbatim. How To Use Silica To Grow Healthier Cannabis Plants - RQS Blog

So what’s the deal @Estrella?

Do you imagine these regurgitations are helpful without attribution? Are you hoping to build a reputation with them?

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This was an awesome podcast on the topic, by a seemingly very well accredited author. She pretty much says the same thing Estrella said above, but emphasizes the fact none of the benefits are direct. They’re the byproduct of an essentially healthier plant.

One part I found interesting was that plants that require a decent amount of silicon will grab onto arsenic when it’s not available, as their chemical structures are very similar