Yea, I agree with you here. I think when people say “salt base” they mean the protonated form of the alkaloid and not an actual salt based compound with a full ionic bond between the positively charged mitragynine and the negatively charged acetate, oxalate, citrate, whatever, but I’m not an expert on salt based extraction methods and I don’t know for sure if those crystallize out with the mit. I’ve mostly done the alcohol and A/B extraction routes that end in a free base alkaloid. And yes, the limonene method can end in a free base product if the extractors raise the pH at the end to precipitate out the alks from the aqueous solution vs using an ultrasonicator for crystallization.
If you’re looking to pump out kilos of free base then your main customer base is converters taking that and oxidizing it into 7oh. If 7oh gets federally scheduled then that market takes a huge hit. Also, we’re already seeing the price of extract come down. The market is also being flooded with foreign labs pushing out extract. What used to sell for $5000/kg is now going for $2800. And that happened in less than a years time. How long til you are operational? What will the market be then? Who knows.
The foreign extracts are illegal, there is an explicit ban on import extracts but they get around them with misdeclares. On top of that, it’s illegal in Indonesia and Thailand to operate extraction facilities – or export to India anymore. The import extracts also rarely are what they claim to be. You’ll get 1 round of stuff that tests around what they claim to be, and then from then on out its all 25%-30% less potent then what you expect. Also the import exports are riddled with residual solvents.
You can tell on this site who is using import extracts because they’ll have the residuals in them. The residuals are a larger problem for converters, because those residual solvents will also cause side reactions/oxidation products in the conversion process. The imports are such a problem, and the funny thing is, they’re also just driving the price of leaf down as the profit margins become slimmer and slimmer for those of us doing it right. Which sounds like a good thing, however, all it does is incentivize slave labor in the harvesting end. And the people doing the harvesting aren’t exactly the wealthiest people to begin with.
Yea, I can’t find anyone who knows definitively what they’re talking about with the salt vs freebase. Including analytic labs. Everyone has a different response. I’m only speaking from a perspective based on pH solubility fundamentals. The spectator ion shouldn’t have much to do with solubility, just the concentration of free H+ ions.
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Facts SWD,
There are too many variables to kick off a hard answer. And while the climate is so rapidly changing, it’s tough to predict futures.
I know what the mission, vision, purpose is. And I’ve seen clientele that moved volume into their own mnfg processes. I believe the market will stabilize. And I believe the demand will remain consistent.
Too many people love Kratom and its constituent Krataloids, to simply see the market disappear. But discovering the perfect partnerships to nail and scale perpetual & residual supply relationship will be all that it takes.
I always preferred bulk, wholesale or even distributor level business. If everyone can get what they need at a fair and equitable price, that allows for everyone to make money, that can sustainably produce mutually beneficial relationships.
Our end game is not Kratom, but having access to the finest Krataloids is essential to create a multi-corporation focused on vertically integrated alkaloids for systemic primary & secondary metabolites & their aggregated beneficial effects.
Instead of seeking out a supply partner, the path of least resistance seemed to be building the lab from scratch. Obviously we can only control what falls within our purview. And we can’t predict factors that have not yet occurred, or ran their course.
We have foreign extract supply chains, as well as domestic mnfgs that have been producing for several years. I believe it will end up like cannabis, some states will go through their regulatory fluctuations. And some will choose the profits over political opinions.
I’d like to see some clinical trials, which focus on the potential applications for natural substances to reduce our dependence on pharmaceutical products in general. I also believe Nuutropics are bringing health back into the individuals control. Like monitoring when our bodies leave homeostasis can be the most popular tools to tackle preventing diseases rather then reacting to them.
At any rate. I APPRECIATE your input and intend to continue networking within the existing infrastructure, until we build a new model.
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Most of the Leaf harvesting occurs in rural villages, from the jungles… and its a low tech operation.
How much leaf can be plucked by hand, and hung out on tarps to dry in the sun. Then it’s milled, containers are filled, and it’s off to market.
As far as import situations, as long as the product is intended for research purposes only. The FDA has minimal influence. This is no different then Peptides, if labeled for Lab use, or under a physicians advice Rx, it has a higher USP standard to adhere To. Often batch tested with CGMP standards. If it’s labeled “Not for human consumption" or “research purposes only” … then it falls under cosmetic law which is far less stringent then FDA protocols. Now you cannot make therapeutic claims, on research Molecules, because clearly it has not been evaluated by the FDA… yet the same product can be put into 2 different containers with different labels and be prepared for different markets.
Without getting lost in the weeds there are plenty of law firms who have triumphed the import issues, without mislabeling but simply riding under alternative contract laws, UCC codes, and parameters.
I believe your science is sound, and think most laymen just consider applications. Freebase is best suited for converting while salt for putting into products. Obviously one can be converted to the other. But most mnfgs aren’t also handling the extraction/conversion process. So a vertically integrated Corp benefits from doing the in house work, while others are at the mercy of their immediate suppliers offerings.
I’d like to see consistency and quality Trump convenience or the race to the bottom. And plenty of others put potency and purity above the cheapest. 2 types of people, and the bell curve is real. Quality or cost… people who pay less often sacrifice the best… while people who want the best know they pay a premium for just that.
Apparently some of the tribes that harvest the leaf are cannibals (Diak or something). But yea, we were paying 5-7$/kg, now I had an offer 2.75$/kg. That price is because the import extract is pushing the price down. On one hand it’s good, but on the other hand it’s driving the price of extract as a whole down. For an inferior product. I’ve had export extract that was in a sealed package, inside a shipping box, that smelled like solvents. Straight gasoline pretty much. We as, our facility has never failed for any solvents at all. Converters will tell us they’re getting the same product for 500-1000$/kg less expensive and they’re going to go with that option, we let them, then they come back to us after running 100kg of import extract and getting shitty 7OH that has residual solvents they don’t even use. This is bad for the market as a whole. How many of the kratom “deaths” are because they’re taking toxic levels of some unknown solvent. And kratom users are usually using it to opt out of pharmaceuticals, which if they are on pharmaceuticals it’s most likely because of a pre-existing health issue. Worst thing they need is some insane dosage of DCM or toluene or whatever.
Really doesn’t look good for the overall marketplace.
Ultimately the only way kratom is going away is if the FDA directly intervenes. 7OH has been on retail shelves for almost a decade now, and they’re still purporting it as a ‘potential’ opioid crisis. When heroin enters into a community, you can tell pretty much immediately. The largest avenue for the FDA to directly involved would be from tainted import extract. Shit RFK had the press conference and then 7OH is still not scheduled. RFK literally stepped in and told the Ohio governor to fuck off.
Great points. I think $3 a kg is far from fair market value. I choose to support small organic farmers. I choose to use fair trade/ or farmer supported supply lines. 
I would rather pay more and know that my supplier values our relationship then nickle and dime down to unsavory one sided benefit. When we all come up together the Ecosystem thrives. No need for unbalanced scales and cheating people out of the effort they put in and value it adds.
Can’t you remove most of those unwanted solvents, by implementing further Büchi process? Spit balling here. But perhaps not all are equal, but trace residual solvent may remain → sometimes you need a secondary purge (vacuum oven, nitrogen sweep, or freeze-dryer for aqueous solutions).
For sure man, I’m assuming that we’re still at the point where most of the kratom is still just people going into the jungle and grabbing wild leaf, but I think I’ve heard tell of farms popping up. Granted it takes a while for those trees to mature, but yea the more organic/fair trade the better. It’s not sustainable unless everyone can eat, people don’t just destroy vast tracks of jungle etc. I can’t find any numbers on it, but I wonder if anyone tracks deforestation as a result of kratom. I remember when Thailand was talking about making kratom illegal, they were going to exterminate all the kratom trees, then realized they’d have to bulldoze like 35 million acres of jungle or something absurd.
But yea, the kratom industry is rife with scammers and charletons. I take pride in being part of one of a handful of organizations that can put their money where their mouth is. We charge a little more than the imports, and people know that, but they still come back because we make a consistent product without any of the weirdness.
You can remove the unwanted solvents, but it isn’t commercially viable really. You pretty much just have to make your own LLE extraction facility for it, and now you’re introducing more waste streams, liabilities, etc in doing so. It’s always better to start with a clean starting product. For instance, you can get leaf that has pesticides in it. You can extract out the pesticides, sure, but wouldn’t it be better to just start with leaf that doesn’t have pesticides in it?
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@KBHemperor Paradox knows what he is talking about I work with him^
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Appreciate the COAs. Nice product, but the residual 7oh may make it a tougher sell since most of the MGM market is localized in Florida. What is your target price per active?
If we purified out the 7 to ND levels. What’s your volume price targets?
While this stuff is legal and all, go for it! Good luck lasting more than 18 months. Seems like a shitty plan.
Also this post is sketch af. Seems like OP is just digging for info
Also, sorry im dense but what is MGM 15
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Probably won’t be legal for long. Still better than fent…. I guess 
I mean ya, better than fent and fiends gonna fiend so might as well keep that money out of fent dealers, hands? Although ppl I know that have chronic pain are actually actively effectively turning to 7oh tablets 10mg ones, when they run out of doctor prescribed opiates, cause doctor wont prescribe enough or what have you. So fuck theres two sides to every coin. and if i needed this stuff daily for quality of life or pain relief, I would be stocking the fuck up cause its not gonna stick around.
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Wholesale? 5 cents an active depending on volume.
what is Kratom, how to extract it from the leaf…..
You extract it by putting it into a paper bag and shake very aggressively.
Its best administered via suppository.
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i have 3 kratoms that i would like to trade for 5 marijuanas
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