Hello There. Long time reader, this site has alot of invaluable info for which I’m much appreciative!
I just filed the paperwork today and signed the lease on my lab to obtain my processing license here in Oklahoma. While the paperwork works it’s way through the system, I’m ordering equipment.
My question (of many): Any reason this extraction vessel wouldn’t work for a cryo ethanol extraction vessel? I’d pair it with an appropriately sized chiller. I haven’t seen these vessels being used anywhere else, and I’m wondering if there’s something I’m missing. Perhaps the glass can’t handle the low (-80c) temps? most of the extraction vessels I’ve seen are stainless. I wouldn’t use the distillation apparatus shown/included, would likely just plug those ports.
The problem I see with those type of reactors is it would be a pain getting the material in and out. That would get old after a day. To get back most of the ethanol you will need to put the material in a centrifuge or press. So you would have to scoop it out in put into a filter bag. Some of the larger reactors have a large port hole so you could put material in zippered filtered bags first, making it easier to remove and centrifuge. Those glass reactors would most likely work really well for winterizing BHO or warm ethanol extractions, because its already a liquid and no plant material to deal with.
I’m experimenting with a jacketed tank with a drain on the bottom, so I can put material in loose and then pump the slurry into filter bags after extractions. Some systems have a line setup to feed the slurry right into a centrifuge. The only issue is the material has to be milled really well in order for it to drain from the tank properly.
The best setup in my opinion is something like the Delta Separtations CUP, but pretty expensive - YouTube
What’s your budget and desired throughput? How many workers will you have? Using these vessels is going to be inefficient. A centrifuge for extraction is really the only thing that makes sense unless you drop $50k on a drying filter press. Then you can go from extraction slurry to filter press to evaporation in a more reasonable manner.
You are able to do that. Some manufacturers package a glass jacketed reactor with -80C chiller +vacuum for extraction.
One of the facilities I worked for did this. That being said, they did have a problem with broken glass on occasion. Check what temperatures the glass allows before purchasing. Warranties don’t typically cover glass. Also, there was a lot of ethanol left in the plant material, so a centrifuge is required if you want to reclaim all of your alcohol+oil.
My opinion: it works, but you may end up spending more money replacing glass than you would just buying a SS system. Also remember to bake in the cost of a centrifuge (or some other system) to reclaim what is left in the plant before making your purchase.
Before you make your purchase visit dragonflytechrl.com as we would give you advice and a quote on any equipment you are interested in. Give us a call and let them know Dave, Senior Associate referred you.
Everything being said though, that reactor isn’t totally useless for our purposes. It looks like it would make a lot of post-processing a breeze, be it LLE, brine wash, decarb, or even crystallization for CBD Isolate.
Thank you all for the input guys, really. some thoughts below.
@tare - It looks like there is a fairly big port hole in the top of the reactor, I wonder if the biomass could be put in a bubble bag/chiffon to avoid the scooping and ease removal. Kind of trying to replicate lostbiologist Bucket-tek here but using something more sophisticated than buckets for extraction.
@Jay-TL - I have about 30k to spend for equipment and I’m trying to get to distillate as the finished product. I’m aiming to start small, processing ~10lbs/day of trim a day if I can manage, and scale up as needed. Workers… Me right now, and I have 2 people that can help as needed. Id love to use a centrifuge as an extraction vessel, I completely agree with you in terms of efficiency. I just don’t know of many (any?) centrifuges that are rated/certified/robust enough to use in a licensed lab and handle being flooded or sprayed with ethanol… I’m thinking a modified washing machine, panda, etc won’t work here, but I’m just speculating. I’d love to hear some suggestions or examples or info on centrifuges as extraction vessels. Also… Is a centrifuge absolutely necessary starting out? seems to me one could just do a thorough rinse of the biomass and accept some loss of solvent in the non-centrifuged spent biomass, but maybe that loss is much more significant than I’m giving credit for.
@_TK - Thanks for the notes from experience. I’m looking for a jacketed SS vessel I could pair with a -80C Chiller, but I haven’t been able to source any that seem suitable yet. If you have any suggestions, I’d love to hear them.
@coppertop - Thanks for the those nice ideas, I’ll keep them in my back pocket
Thanks again to all. I work long hours during the day so my window to respond is limited, but the input is much appreciated.
You’re way better off putting that 30k into distillation equipment, rotovaps and a larger (and much cheaper) stainless jacketed reactor. The solvent isn’t the only thing you’re leaving on the biomass, it’s also cannabinoids with that expensive solvent. Food for thought, the loss is enough for people to regularly spend upwards of 100k on a centrifuge. I understand having to meet licensing requirements and stay within budget, but you’re really better off saving your money for a centrifuge later and going a bit more primitive on the extraction than blowing your wad on a relatively small glass reactor. It’s a nice piece of equipment to have once you start to scale up, but as an extraction vessel it’s ridiculously expensive for what you get. ESPECIALLY if you are planning on mainly running trim. It won’t get you any better extract than you’ve seen in the bucket teks, and honestly it’s going to be more of a pain in the ass than just sticking with bucket tek for now.
Your main priorities right now should be distillation equipment, filtration equipment, and a centrifuge (or press). A chiller that goes between -40 and 200c would be a great purchase for both extracting and distilling as well. That glass reactor is nice and all, but until you have the basics, I would recommend putting off that several thousand dollar purchase for just a bit. On your limited budget, you should really be looking at the fundamentals.
Thank you for the input! the reactor was fairly cheap but I agree with your post and it gives me some much needed perspective. The chemical engineer in me may have got a little over eager
I’ve also been looking for a SS extraction vessels to use for bucket-tek but I haven’t found anything yet. Most of what I see is quite large scale. Do you have any recommendations for smaller to medium sized vessels? I plan on buying a chiller, so my thought was a jacketed vessel that I could run coolant through during the extraction to help keep the process cold would be beneficial/worhtwhile, as opposed to simply using a SS bucket. Overkill?
Also, just to clarify, you mention in the first paragraph I can bootstrap without a centrifuge despite it’s value. But, you also later you say the centrifuge is a priority/fundamental. My thought was that a centrifuge would be one of my earliest upgrades, but probably not in my initial startup. Is that aligned with your sentiment as well for someone operating on a somewhat limited budget?
Like @coppertop suggests distillation will eat most that $30k. A cheap 20L roto w/pump and chiller, as well as a decent SPD with vacuum, heater, and backup glass is going to take a large chunk of your budget the rest will quickly dwindle once you get a good filtration setup, filter media, solvent, dry ice, a pump/way to move ethanol, buckets, extraction bags, tables, valves, hoses, adapters, glass ware and so forth.
Extraction is probably going to be best suited in food grade buckets wrapped with insulation. You can get your solvent cold via kegs, positive pressure, and some injection coils in buckets of dry ice/acetone or iso and simply do a bucket tech approach. I recommend positive pressure for filtration that way you can use inexpensive CLS spools and filter plates and build a nice filter on the cheap that you can use any old bucket to collect your filtrate.
You can drip dry your plant manterial for now and just deal with the solvent loss until you can afford a centrifuge. You can also try and build (or buy used) a press of sorts to help retrieve as much solvent from your source material as possible.
A centrifuge is important, but lack of one won’t stop you from scaling. Just eat into your margins. My point would be to save that extra money you’re going to spend on a glass reactor for a centrifuge. There are a few folks here who could probably help you find a manufacture out of India or China for a centrifuge within the 20-30k range. Hell, I know a few here have mentioned getting used centrifuges for less than 20k. I’m lucky enough to still be able to use panda dryers, but I know that’s going to be very temporary, so my first upgrade is going to be a fuge. If I didn’t have the pandas, my priorities would be the same.
Do you know anyone who can weld stainless? A keg cut into a pot with a cutoff wheel and a fabricated jacket could be just what you’re looking for. It’s super easy to insulate that jacket with poster board and spray foam as well. Hell, even just a sleeve for acetone and dry ice to sit in would be great.
I started with a 10k budget for hemp extraction, so I’m getting a pretty good idea of just how far money goes in this process. The cheaper you can get the basics done, the better your chances of success. It fucking sucks having to dig into your own pocket for unexpected expenses (which WILL happen), and I know how fast you can unexpectedly burn through a budget like that. If you’re getting the reactor for a steal, then go for it. Like I said, it will definitely come in handy later. But if it’s more than a few k, you’re better off putting that purchase off. Just my two cents.
Thanks again for the good info. I’m leaning towards the vessel in the image below (7 gallons, found one local for 150). I want to try to engineer some kind of jacket for a dry ice slurry to sit in, but at the very least I can insulate the heck out of it. Not that it’s a big tank, but do you think I’d run into any problems if I wanted to run smaller batches in the vessel? like say only 1-2 lbs of biomass while testing out equipment and getting all the kinks lined out downstream.
The only concern I can think of with running 1-2lbs is your starting material pooling down by the bottom valves making it difficult to stirr/agitate. You can use a food grade Cambro bucket for small batches.
Yea good point i was thinking that too but was considering just doing a soak rather than stir/agitate much. Still probably best to use something with a flat bottom though like you’re describing. But I’m fixated on using stainless, lol.
I also like the idea of something with a port at the bottom, I think it’d be neat to set up some insulated tubing directly to a filter column and just pull a vacuum through the closed loop.
Maybe something like this would be better for le small batches (3.5 gal vessel)
I saw they have a similar rig with a sprayer attachment to recirculate solvent. I wonder if just circulating the ethanol would be better than stirring up the whole mix and smashing up those plant cells. Just a thought, not trying to reinvent the wheel here lol.
