The whole point of the discussion is that there are “unknowns” - and so simulations cannot be performed.
Just now we are speculating on what these unknowns might be. And proposing hypothesis to attempt to test for or remove these unknowns such that we might be able to identify them and then be able to simulate them and develop systems/processes which will limit variability even when we have variable starting materials.
Also - Bronsted acid/bases gets closer and still doesn’t help all the people here that don’t know anything about chemistry. So its good to share things but legit telling people that might not have any idea how to measure kJ/mol may not be as helpful as you are hoping it to be.
And it might be helpful if you expressed which simulation software you think would be best to utilize for these exercises. Perhaps someone that is part of this conversation has access to this simulating software and can assist with some of the hypotheses.
The partial positive and negative charges that we are expecting in cannabinoids have not been effectively measured and published. So we’re really having to either spend months developing all those charts for simulation.
Or acknowledge that the information is not available to do the simulation and therefore a simulation is not a solution that will be helpful just now - but open the door to collecting and sharing the information so they can be done in the future.
100%. THCa and this amine? Terps and this amine? Something else that used to be there but it no longer there and the cannabinoids?
What about all the other variables? Cleaning solutions for the column. Type of socks (if any) used and cleaning solutions for those? Types and styles of gasket materials and potential degradations? Filter media of different types? Coatings on filters? Material of construction for all product contact parts and the potential for any residue/residuals/etc. that might come from those.
What about downstream variables? Contaminates in the air / cleaning solutions used on hands/gloves/utensils?
Once upon a time I worked at a pharma company and we had gray specks that started showing up on a very small percentage of our tablets. It took almost 6 months of constant investigating to realize that these little gray specs had come from the raw material supplier, that their milling machine had a gasket that was inside the machine and had been torn and that very small milled parts of it were ending up in the raw material and then passing all testing ending up in the tablets. The material didn’t turn gray until it was exposed to the spray lance fluid (IPA in this case) and so it always looked like normal white powder until then.
Its crazy how impurities can fuck the whole work up.
Does anyone have any unknown peaks they have isolated and/or already identified?
This will happen, depending on which things are more stable in the butane. If you add HA and B to a solution and HA is a very strong acid, B a very strong base, or both, then they can react to form A(-) plus HB(+), even if these are charged species in an apolar solvent. Most likely you will have closely paired moieties to preserve charge balance in the butane, since butane is unlikely to solvate the charged species very well on their own.
In the case of an amine and THCA, it is likely that if an amine is present it will end up forming some sort of close pairing with the THCA - even simply through polarity - even if there is no true proton transfer in the end.
These shots were from a few weeks ago. Each picture is from a different jar at about 24 hours after pour (a few separate runs from the same day). If nothing else, they are pretty to look at.
We have also noticed that the medusa/fast crash stones/sugar take significantly more energy to decarb, if they decarb at all under our normal parameters.
Hmm now that’s a realy intresting observation
That the thc-a get s property s other than polymorphism by this impurity
Meaning your thc-a becomes less prone to decarbixilate @moronnabis would a thc-a with say a cooh
Have difrent decarboxilation property’s
Than a thc-a with say coo- ???
I know for sure that this has influence on it s crystelization property s
A cooh cbd-a will far more easy crystelize than
Any other like cbd-a coo-
But was not aware it could influence it s phasic property.s
This now realy has me intreuged for I have been searching for a while for a decarboxilation blocker
What’s the exact mechanics that make cannabinoids more prone to decarboxilate in the presence of some metals/metaaloxides ? @Dr_Jebril ?
My assumption is that we have two organics… THCA and our putative catalyst. Both of them have achieved a certain oxidation state as a function of prior exposure to aqueous environments.
These two substances then encounter each other in butane, an aprotic organic solvent. While pKa’s are solvent dependent, I would assume that they would be relative to overall electron affinity? So that the scalar part will change but the order of reactivity will not?
In that way the pKas would not be accurate but informative of what species would be the final results.
I can rule all of those out. It’s definitely in the gas, or no longer in the gas. I can see jars being possibly part of the equation for those using them, as the current jars don’t hold the lid on as tight, however I think that’s because this gas has a little more pressure than before, just a theory.
I can rule out material, as I have seen several places with significantly different growing methods, all extracts have the same issues.
There is a co2 shortage caused by a current contamination, seems fitting butane, maybe even nitrogen could all be contaminated from the past shifts in how/where they source the crude.
I think the current assumption of mea and dea are likely the right direction.
I did have a product I intentionally sent to testing with excess butane, it came back at 7000ppm butane, but also 40ppm methanol and 30 ppm of pentane.
I would think those working with solvent tanks that can be opened should place a pouch 1micron with T41 or any accitic bentonite in there and run as usual if amines are there they might get coughs this way
But if you allow me to split some hairs, the solvent is not a separable or trivial part of the pKa. If substance HA has a pKa of 4 in water and a substance HB a pKa of 5 in water, it does not necessarily mean that A will always be more acidic than B. This is because the stability of the conjugate base and the acid forms can change a lot depending on the solvent, because different solvents with different properties will stabilize different molecules more.
If for example HA was very aliphatic and HB was small and polar, HA might be much more stable than HB in an apolar solvent. Therefore HB might turn out to be a stronger acid in an apolar solvent. This is nuanced and hard to predict without doing the relevant computational chemistry calculations. Of course, this is mainly relevant for things that have similar acidities to start with.
To your point, if you’re talking about a carboxylic acid and an amine, the carboxylic acid will always be a stronger Bronsted acid.
They definitely crash fast. The slow cooling approach is what makes them grow so fast out of a saturated solution that’s not supersaturated yet, since it can go a bit lower in temp before the cloud shows up
I don’t think anyone is making in rate of change assumptions. But we are asking people to do the experiments and check the math just in case. Especially since some of this information is not readily available in the literature.
I think the idea that its these specific amines (which have been used for decades) being left behind as impurities is good. And also - this gas is used for Food Production and all kinds of other things all over the US.
These impurities we are talking about are not GRAS and so they have to be tested for and treated for, in food production gasses. Is everyone using Food Grade Gas? If not - are the people using FGG having the same issues?
Butane is used for all kinds of products (mostly shelf stable spray dairy products and the like…) you’d think they would also be seeing something like this happening. Discoloration, changes in flavor, changes in product stability etc.
In any case - if the real culprit is these amines - then using a method to remove any residual amines should get people there.
Did it have anything else there? Any other unknown peaks on the chromatogram?
What about the gas test itself? I mean… we are probably talking about less than 1% contamination, but even so you should still be able to see it. Do we know if its MEA, DEA, or MMEA? They are all used in this manner for these kinds of gasses and CO2…depending on where its coming from.
I mean - it seemed like the suppliers had been talking with the broader community. Seems like something simple that could be asked and noted upon a simple supplier review, no?
You should be able to water wash off these amines - and then test for them as well. Perhaps using a bubbler to do this and then submit the water off to be tested. Known quantity bubbled through, then do the math to see the level of contamination.
I’ll go take another look, but I don’t remember seeing anything else.
I with you on the water wash, butane mixes with water quite well, I found a patent on using a water wash to break the azeotrope between butane and methanol mea and dea likely would also be removed.
Edit: checked the test results an it had isopropanol 7ppm
Methanol 42
Pentane 48
Butane 7700
Acetone 10
Then the re test had traces of
Toluene
Ethyl acetate
Had more Acetone than the first test,
37ppm.
Both re tests had traces of Ethyl acetate and toluene
And that’s just the identified peaks! And I can tell you for certain other compounds that are currently an issue coelude with some of those listed and brings along lots of water solubles along with it.
I can imagine
I realy think it s up to the gas distributors to complain I imagine some sort of standerd is
Given and these numbers are most likely way over that standard
But knowing these numbers normal polymorphism might realy be the isseu without the amines shit basically it could be any of all these compounds pfff
Makes me wonder who s ready with there butane membrane recovery rig ?
That could solve it as well
