Identification of synthetic CBD

polarized light source and a polarimeter

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yeah, no problem! You ask great questions, And the community chirped up to answer the call!:call_me_hand:

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sunlight, a puddle, and some expensive shades? :sunglasses:

https://www.ebay.com/i/123277529211

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look at that Chinese cbd through your Chinese ray-bans, you can see that shits fake :sunglasses:
Side note: ever gone skiing with polarized sunglasses? Pretty Trippy if you ask me

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This should do the trick ?
Once i know wtf i Need to do i guess :grinning:

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I can’t recommend any brand or type of polarimeter, but looks like its up for the task at hand. Is that thing really $34? or is that $3400?

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IT s realy 34 :grinning: IT s an auction of gouvernement apparatus
In this case iT s the custums Office :joy: If only the knew
But Yes i buy a lot of My gear here
Most i can t use but learning one machine at a time

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quick search didn’t find that model, but the manual from the next series up might be applicable. it’s “bro_series” too :wink:

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As a disclaimer, I don’t know jack shit when it comes to analytical chemistry, but this reminded me of a post on erowid that I thought might offer some insight into how to look for differences between a botanically derived compound and the same compound that has been synthetically manufactured. See section IV.

https://erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/cocaine.illicit.production.html

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@Roguelab et al… One way to tell if the CBD is from biosynthetic (in vivo, natural plant produced) or synthetic (in vitro, made by humans in a lab) source might be to identify the presence of co-occuring (bio) or byproduct/precursor (synth) compounds. For example, there may be olivetol precursor left in a synthetic material, or some exo-THC (the hallmark of synthetic THC samples). Naturally co-occuring compounds might include normal Δ9-THC, but should not include THCa. So if you analyze a sample and it appears to contain THCa, that is most likely a synthetic precursor or byproduct.

Testing optical rotation might help, but one would need the polarimetry data from pure plant-derived CBD, as the degree of rotation of the plane of polarized light. This is equally applicable to THC. The natural forms of both compounds should rotate the plane left (levorotary), if I remember correctly. I do not know to what degree, though I am sure it is buried in the literature somewhere.

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Why no THCa? do all cbd isolation methods involve heat?

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When it comes to isolating CBD from cannabis, the resin is extracted, decarboxylated, hot distilled, and recrystallized. Those steps with asterisks are quite hot and they intentionally decarboxylate all the acidic cannabinoids, which allows the CBD to be crystallized separate from THC.

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interesting! thank you for sharing. I might be calling to ask some questions about crystallization of CBD soon. Hope you are well.

GH

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Ok so i had to read a shit load of papers to understand the anwsers given
But as usual one question leads to 3
A molecule is a molecule Well yet there is a diffrence : racemic
So the Quistion is is there Any research known on the racemic propertys of cannabinoids ?
Does there seem to be a favorit ?
Left or right turning
Several studies And events have shown that with other compounds one is diffrent than the other
For those not getting what i am reffuring to
Take the medication softanon
Or like in ketamine diffrent high wether You take resimic (50%L /50% R )
Only left turning or only right turning
Same molecule diffrent high
@cyclopath ?

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That’s essentially what the biggest difference between synthetic and botanically derived cocaine is isomer difference according to that erowid article. Synthetic cocaine is typically a racemic mixture where one isomer has zero psychoactive effect, so even if it’s “pure”, it’s still only half as strong as pure botanical cocaine. Just like levo and dextro amphetamine, where levo has more physiological effects or “body load” and dextro is more psychoactive. Pharmaceutical amphetamine is typically a specific mix or isolation of these isomers where street amphetamine is 50/50 mix. You can also tell if illicit methamphetamine was synthesized using pseudoephedrine or methylamine based on isomer content. Would D9 and D10 be a fair comparison?

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Racemic mixtures are mixtures of enantiomers, that being said these are spectroscopically equivalent, however you can separate these with HPLC using a chiral column. These enantiomers are certainly different molecules.
thalidomide and carvone are classic examples of how different biological activity can be between these different substances.

The way to characterize between R and S or Left and Right is by polarimetry. There should not be much data on enantiomers for cannabinoids because I believe CBD and THC are the only two where it would be possible. CBN and CBG do not have any chiral centers. If there any other cannbinoid with proven structures I can tell you if they have chiral centers or people can look it up themselves!

However you can get several isomers, ie different double bond geometries E or Z or even difference in location of double bond ex: delta 8 vs delta 9.

So my statement holds true a molecule is a molecule blah blah blah. The enatiomers are spectroscopically equivalent and have the same chemical formula etc but they will rotate light in different directions based upon their “chemical handedness”.

Ask more questions if you need me to clarify or if I missed something!

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Ok clear
Are al natural cannabinoids L turning ? Only.

I do not know the answer to that

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There is a woman, Alison Frand at the Cannabis Research Institute at UCLA, that is developing an interesting bioassay using a nematode species that seems to be able to distinguish between phyto-derived cannabinoids and synthesized cannabinoids.

Frand Lab

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I think you have a misunderstanding of what her research entails, in additon a lack of chemical understanding of what defines a chemical structure or molecule. A molecule whether synthetic or naturally isolated is the spectroscopically (evidence based chemical structure determinant) identical molecule. A MOLECULE IS A MOLECULE IS A MOLECULE. Cannabidiol and all other characterized cannabinoids have an extremely specific spactial orientation of atoms that make up their chemical formulas.

Naturally derived cannabinoids have spectral data associated with them, if a synthetic chemist chooses to make one of these natural products he/she must provide the same rigorous spectra of the synthetic molecules and these must match the natural product, if they do not match the synthetic chemist or even possibly the natural product chemist is incorrect.

Overall if a molecule is synthetic and accurately matches the natural product those are in fact the EXACT same molecule.

Alison Frand is doing much more novel work than what you are claiming she does. What are you claiming she does is really not that neat and could be determined via current spectroscopic methods.

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