Has anyone had issues with using MCT on ETOH carts and crashing out sugars inside the carts? I’ve seen sugars (what I’m assuming are sugars) crystalize and burn on the bottom of my beaker when decarbing. I’m a bit worried I’ll end up with precipitating sugars in my carts after being mixed with MCT, but if that hasn’t been an issue for anyone else I guess I can skip doing a non-polar/water flush before mixing.
1 Like
@square_root_pharms Hey buddy, saw you on here. Just wanted to say hi. 
Also wanted to add this:
"Carbonyl Compounds Produced by Vaporizing Cannabis Oil Thinning Agents.
Troutt WD1, DiDonato MD1.
Author information
1
Medical Marijuana Research Institute , Tempe, AZ.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
Cannabis use has increased in the United States, particularly the use of vaporized cannabis oil, which is often mixed with thinning agents for use in vaporizing devices. E-cigarette research shows that heated thinning agents produce potentially harmful carbonyls; however, similar studies have not been conducted (1) with agents that are commonly used in the cannabis industry and (2) at temperatures that are appropriate for cannabis oil vaporization. The goal of this study was to determine whether thinning agents used in the cannabis industry produce potentially harmful carbonyls when heated to a temperature that is appropriate for cannabis oil vaporization.
DESIGN:
Four thinning agents (propylene glycol [PG], vegetable glycerin [VG], polyethylene glycol 400 [PEG 400], and medium chain triglycerides [MCT]) were heated to 230°C and the resulting vapors were tested for acetaldehyde, acrolein, and formaldehyde. Each agent was tested three times.
SETTING/LOCATION:
Testing was conducted in a smoking laboratory.
OUTCOME MEASURES:
Carbonyl levels were measured in micrograms per puff block.
RESULTS:
Analyses showed that PEG 400 produced significantly higher levels of acetaldehyde and formaldehyde than PG, MCT, and VG. Formaldehyde production was also significantly greater in PG compared with MCT and VG. Acrolein production did not differ significantly across the agents.
CONCLUSIONS:
PG and PEG 400 produced high levels of acetaldehyde and formaldehyde when heated to 230°C. Formaldehyde production from PEG 400 isolate was particularly high, with one inhalation accounting for 1.12% of the daily exposure limit, nearly the same exposure as smoking one cigarette. Because PG and PEG 400 are often mixed with cannabis oil, individuals who vaporize cannabis oil products may risk exposure to harmful formaldehyde levels. Although more research is needed, consumers and policy makers should consider these potential health effects before use and when drafting cannabis-related legislation.
KEYWORDS:
cannabis oil; cannabis thinning agents; cannabis vaporization; carbonyl production"
to the discussion from PubMed. Hope it helps. Good seeing you on here.
2 Likes
Hey buddy glad to see you here. What you’ve posted is the exact study in question. See florduh’s posts about it’s extremely questionable methodology and other issues here:
Across the Cannabis World, PEG based vape solutions are now considered to be poisonous cancer-juice. Doing some basic research all of this seems to stem from a single study popularized by ProjectCBD. Here is a link to the study everyone is quoting:
Carbonyl Compounds Produced by Vaporizing Cannabis Oil Thinning Agents
I have several problems with this study.
-
It was published in The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. Not exactly the New England Journal of Medicine. I’m tempted to call this a third rate scientific journal, but that may be too generous. The watchdog group “Quackwatch” includes them in their list of bullshit “scientific” journals. They were criticized a few years back for a paper that concluded that just maybe homeopathy works (it doesn’t). As Quackwatch states, this journal is “fundamentally flawed”.
-
The main author of the study, William Troutt, isn’t a scientist. He’s a Naturopathic “Physician”. He has published only one other paper that was basically a survey of medical marijuana users. “Naturopathy” isn’t science. This is like an acupuncturist publishing a scientific paper. Who would take that seriously?
-
This study hasn’t been peer reviewed, to the best of my knowledge. Science is about the repeatability of results. Not one “Naturopath’s” findings. Yet it seems the entire cannabis space considers the findings of one guy to be “settled science”.
-
I take issue with their methodology. They claim PEG converted to formaldehyde at an alarming rate when they bumped up an old Ego style ecig up to 4.8 volts. I am a nicotine vaper who used to use those Ego style carts. No one was hitting those at the maximum voltage on an Ego style battery because… surprise surprise… it burns.
They used e-cigs in a way no real world user does. According to the study, after 446 degrees Fahrenheit, PEG would start degrading into formaldehyde. Modern Temp Control vapes could easily prevent this from happening. Even setting a Temp Control mod past 450 doesn’t mean the actual aqueous solution is being heated to 450. The mod is reading the temp of the coil itself.
Additionally, newer e-cig atomizers have more juice inlet holes than the carts apparently used in the study. This further prevents any burning or runaway temps.
Now… if you are they type of person who wants to avoid “chemicals”… good on you. If you hate the taste of PEG vape solutions, that’s ok. My issue is that the cannabis vape industry has moved from PEG based solutions to Distillate mixed with non-cannabis derived terps, believing this to be a “healthier” option.
The science does NOT support this being a healthier option at this point. And the terps used in every pre-filled distillate cartridge I’ve tried burn my throat at least as much as PEG.
Also, there is no study showing these potent solvents/terpenes are safe for inhalation. On the other hand there was a two week study done on the inhalation of PEG-3350 on rats. Note, that is a much “heavier” version of PEG than the PEG 400 used in vape solutions, so one would expect it to be even more toxic. After exposing rats to a huge amount of heavy PEG for 14 days… the rats were fine. Here’s the study:
Two-week aerosol inhalation study on polyethylene glycol (PEG) 3350 in F-344 rats.
Now does this mean PEG is perfectly safe? No. But I’d like to see what happens if you expose rats to a similarly high inhaled dose of terpenes, many of which are potent solvents, for 14 days. My guess is all the rats would fucking die.
If you don’t like diluting concentrates at all, and prefer to stay as “natural” as possible, by all means avoid PEG solutions. But claiming PEG is deadly based on one dubious study seems odd to me.
There was a similar study done on “dabbing” straight concentrate.
Toxicant Formation in Dabbing: The Terpene Story
It concluded that dabbing at temperatures higher than 750 degrees Fahrenheit exposed users to benzene, a molecule with a more established link to cancer than formaldehyde.
I understand that most e-nail users don’t use temperatures above 750. But most e-cig vapers don’t use their device the way “Dr.” Troutt’s study observed either. If we treated the Dabbing study the way we did the PEG study, everyone would be throwing away their e-nails.
I’m happy to have someone show me where I’m wrong here. Are there other studies from reputable scientific journals that show PEG is “deadly”?
I don’t discount that many people dislike using PEG for other reasons (taste, potency, etc). I just find it odd that we moved from PEG to vaping unstudied “plant derived” terpenes based on one dubious study.
If you avoid PEG because you try to avoid “chemicals”, I get that. But you are likely inhaling more carcinogens by taking a deep breath in a densely populated area. And that’s just from the brake dust alone.
3 Likes
It’s easy for a biased researcher with no chemistry credentials like Troutt to design a study that makes his employer’s MCT oil vapes look like the safe option, while declaring their competitors’ products to be poison. I don’t know if that’s what happened, but I think our community’s demonization of PEG based on this single, rather dubious, study… is unfair.
If you bring up any PEG mix on a cannabis forum, you will inevitably get people declaring that it’s poison. We are nowhere near being able to say that with any degree of confidence. Even Troutt admits more study is needed before stating that conclusively.
Where did he source his materials? Like I said, there are reasons not to trust the guy. And something about the declared PEG dominant e-juice caused it to come out ahead of your normal PG/VG mixes. If it wasn’t PEG… what was it?
We have two studies. One by a naturopath with a financial conflict of interest. And one published in a very prestigious journal, authored by numerous chemistry PhD’s. I know which one I tend to take more seriously.
At best, we can say MAYBE PEG is dangerous, when used with temperatures higher than most real world users experience. But there is scant scientific evidence to support that claim.
Keep in mind that vaping flower at temperatures higher than most users enjoy also can expose users to dangerous carbonyls. There are similar issues with high temp dabbing. But I don’t see anyone throwing out their flower vapes and e-nails. Instead, we keep temperatures to a safe level. How is vaping e-juice with PEG any different?
2 Likes
I get headaches from the amount of subconscious eye-rolling I must be doing when I’m working cannabis conventions/expos. From people bashing concentrates because of the “chemicals” used to extract them to someone calling me a reckless idiot for suggesting to someone I use “paint stripper” to clean their glassware (I suggested using acetone), there’s no shortage of willful ignorance and misinformation being spread in this industry. Datura and Castor beans are natural, so it must be good for you, right? Natural = Healthy?
4 Likes
Hey now… My wife is using castor oil to get her eyebrows to grow in Fuller. Im not sure how that fits in here but I’ll not have any smack talk about castor beans or the bulk leftover ricin biomass.
1 Like
Just don’t eat the beans! 
I sometimes wonder if the superstitions are maliciously spread or if it is just ignorance doing it’s thing.
If you guys are set on cutting your carts, I found that the shorter chained MCTs like C8 and lower are least harsh on the throat. I think they are more reactive than the longer chain triglycerides however, as they have caused discoloration over time (>2 months). Tastes like cooking oil when vaped too hot.
I have found Triethyl citrate to be very unappealing when more than 10% by weight and very effective when used in very minute amounts with terpenes and oil soluble flavors. Taste like burnt plastic when vaporized to hot
For diluting above 30% PEG has the least disgusting flavor. Makes everything taste slightly sweet, and when used in heavy dilution is more viscous than the other diluent liquids. Tastes like burnt plastic when vaped to hot.
Sauce/HTE/ect is a great option if you have it available for viscosity and flavor.
The best solution for catrs where diluents are causing issues is not making carts in the first place. Syringes are very useful when used in conjunction with handheld dabbing devices, and it is easier to deal with syringes as they:
1). Don’t have defects
2). Don’t require dilution to operate
3). Don’t discolor due to materials
4). Don’t rely on inexpensive chinese hardware to operate.
3 Likes
I’d have to agree with that to a point. A syringe and a Yocan are typically my go-to when I’m at home. But the discreet convenience of a vape cartridge is hard to beat when compared to every other device for consuming cannabinoids via inhalation. This convenience and portability really shines when someone is having a panic attack in traffic or feeling a PTSD episode coming on in public. Even in legal states and for medical purposes, there is unfortunately still a stigma attached to using cannabis in public. Even with CBD.
Albuterol-style inhalers would be the gold standard, but there are major safety concerns with manufacturing them outside of a licensed, FDA approved pharmaceutical facility. Then they end up being cost prohibitive until the patent runs out when doing it like that (at least in this country). So there’s good reason for the demand to be so high for the next best thing like cartridges.
I appreciate the tip on the shorter chained MCTs. MCT diluted carts are the only carts that don’t fuck with my asthma. PG/PEG carts are a little more harsh on my lungs, but a lot of these terpene diluted cartridges have me reaching for my albuterol after a few puffs. Not all of them do, so I’d be really interested in knowing exactly what terpenes I’m sensitive to and which ones I can tolerate well. But the IP paranoia in this industry makes it much more difficult to figure that out with everyone coveting their “proprietary blends”.
1 Like
Tbh if you want to figure out what is in the bottle you just have to take the bottle maker to court. 
3 Likes
I always decarb and don’t cut it at all
2 Likes
I’m assuming THC dominant.
Ethanol extract?
which carts are you using (air hole size)?
I don’t think I really thank you enough for your insight thanks again brother I know you guys have flushed buckets of money down the drain to figure some of the shit out as have I. As of right now I am doing exactly as you are I grow everything from clone or seed to harvest do my own very slow cooker process my own extract to crude oil and I have a buddy I outsource the SPD run
5 Likes
having issues with this and CBD formulations. even at 50% CBD solution crashing out
Haven’t tried it in carts, but adding MCT definitely ppt’s sugars out of my EtOH based crude when making formulated tinctures. and heating seems to help them polymerize or ppt or whatever it is they are doing.
1 Like