Ethanol vs Isopropyl Wars

Hash and Stuff Extraction
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Hey Everyone,

For the past 6 months, I’ve been focused on writing a study called “Cannabis Extraction Solvent Safety - An Evidence Based Review”. It took that long to do a deep dive into the science of the solvents, our body’s metabolism and the FDA regulations governing residuals left in foods.

So good news, this study shows through actual numbers and illustrations, you can safely use Isopropyl or Acetone for extraction, of course, only when local laws permit!

All the arguments over Ethanol vs Isopropyl end now.

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Are you trying to say that eating solvents are okay?

I’m pretty sure people are a bit more concerned with smoking solvents than eating the. But I could be wrong there.

I’m not sure what this means:

There didn’t seem to be anything in report you linked that showed how ethanol or isopropyl would be safer, easier to use, or anything like that.

I thought it was quite interesting that while you provided a lot of safety information you didn’t provide any information regarding efficiency of the solvent. Solubility numbers - ease of removal of unwanted constituents, etc.

There’s quite a few solvents out there that are better than ethanol or isopropyl or acetone - but perhaps people are not using those in their homes?

I propose that if people are making edibles at home that they don’t need to use SOLVENTS like this. Fuck man - if people want to make edibles they can extract into fats - fats which don’t take any extra funny busy to handle and which no one is worried about there “residual” amounts.

Also - the fuck are you focusing on LD50 for - that’s the amount that if ingested you expect people to die. Based on your table - you are saying that people could be walking around drinking / eating 45mL of pentane on a daily basis and just be fine - which is not the case. They would already be suffering from serious adverse events and depending on other things already in their system might die.

I think you are using the PDE in an inappropriate manner. I appreciate the work you are doing here - but it feels like you are missing the point of looking at formulations to begin with.

PDE is about cross-contamination. PDE is about understanding the monograph for your material and making sure that you’re limiting safety issues while simultaneously making sure there is no impact to your formulation.

I think its really interesting that you are focused on these residuals instead of residuals that have seriously lower PDEs.

I think its also really interesting that there is no real discussion on how these impurities (which is what they would be if you allowed them to be present) would impact your formulations.

And perhaps most importantly - you seem to be completely forgetting that having testing requirements that are not based on science (because really they are not…) doesn’t have anything to actually do with consumer safety. These are rules that are put in place to control markets. To limit access. To be gatekeepers and job creators. Your statement of “only when local laws permit” - seems to be acknowledging this but also implies that somehow those laws will just go away.

They won’t go away. The limits were brought over from food/drugs because regulators didn’t have access to more information. And certainly because no one is really thinking about what is safe in our foods (if so, the things they would be looking for would be different!).

Would be awesome if you could look at that stuff instead. Proving that GRAS substances and substances with already established oral exposure limits doesn’t help the conversation on inhalants and it definitely doesn’t help the conversation about other solvents were are 100% not included in your study and which are actively used in the industry today. <3

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Eating a little bit of solvents is ok

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All I know is etoh is etoh and that’s not a problem if it’s food grade.

Isopropyl is never food grade and shouldn’t be smoked or injested topicals only.

I’m assuming that smoking both will potentially scar the lungs. Isopropyl more than etoh.
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Yeah you gotta like make it not a shit load of your solvent too in your final result and all that but isopropyl doesn’t have a place besides cleaning.

I’ve been advocating for washing isopropyl extracts with etoh and then using the etoh result for your final product if isopropyl is in the extraction steps.

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yeah but its the whole Etoh slowly turns into a real deal carcinogen with age…
Iso does not.
Dont ask me how i know cuz ill have to tell a story about throwing out 10,000 litres of 200 proof etoh.

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Unpopular opinion: You’re smoking beneze nmw so do you really give a shit?

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Yes, that’s right, these solvents are safe in trace quantities. The saying ‘The Dose is the Poison’ is applicable here. Take a look at each state’s residual solvent legislation. All 4 solvents discussed are typically given the same maximum value, which is effectively the FDA’s standard for maximum residual. The states adopt their standards from the FDA. When in compliance with FDA residual levels. these solvents are harmless. Everything you know about the adverse effects are above PDE levels.

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You said…

Actually, it has a Partial-GRAS rating. Check out Section C. Each solvent is discussed individually.

Also, check out ‘Refined x Cannabis Extract’ process. It describes exactly what you said in using ISO & EtOH.

Purging is easy enough using RxCE. Decarbing has been placed at the final step since that is most optimal for decarbing, but also makes use of the heat to boil off any residuals. I have 4 lab test results showing no detectable residual ISO in my samples using the RxCE process.

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Hahaha, yeah, crazy huh? Inhaling burned shit in the lungs is a bad idea overall. The researchers detected benzene as a resulting product but in such low traces, its well under the FDA tight exposure limits.

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I think that only applies to sanitation with isopropyl not manufacturing with it.

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When was the last time you met a scientist, a chemist, a researcher who learned first hand about those “tight exposure limits”?

When was the last time you saw an employee get exposed below the limit leave your facility in an ambulance?

I have a feeling you have no real world experience with these limits or the consequences of acting under the limits (for the OWNERS the EMPLOYERS not the WORKERS) and still getting very sick and dying earlier than they should have.

I have a feeling you haven’t worked at all with people who are forced to work under these “tight exposure limits” and have their bodies destroyed.

Your disregard for the inadequacies of the science and your focus on limits which cause DEATH instead of observable adverse events is offensive.

If you want to work on actual limits that would be okay for people to be working in AND make sure consumers are safe, hit that DM.

But please - don’t assume because something was published 25+ years ago by the FDA from a lawsuit that was written in blood that there is no harm. Walking around saying pentane is safe to eat is just fucking stupid. And I don’t say that lightly. The way you wrote this is fucking nuts.

And I agree with you that residual limits are too low for many things and that its not aligned with the science - but your premise for getting there is just borked dude. And you cannot go around saying its okay to drink solvents because people will fucking believe you and do stupid shit thinking there is no risk.

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One time I convinced someone on reddit to taste-test the CCl4/CBr4 mixture he was distilling lol.

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Omfg omfg omfg !!! You’ve provoked me to share the one

*going on Google to find it *

Found it

:octopus::man_facepalming:t2:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/comments/16y47c9/a_guy_drinks_a_whole_bottle_of_rubbing_alcohol/

One of my all time favorites of last year. This idiot actually goes and drinks a bottle of solvent.

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Also that one but this one isn’t funny just a good explanation of what happens when you injest a few household chemicals.

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Iso and USP ethanol are both dirty I wouldn’t drink fucking ethanol unless I personally distilled it. And ISO makes way better easier to purge hash. So yea. ISO GANG.

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depends on if it’s been denatured with other shit but aren’t you supposed to distill your solvents prior to use nmw?

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Exactly… Aren’t you? ISO is a better solvent.

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OP has a history of thinking they know better than everyone else just by looking through their posts.

what a shocker, someone whos spent more time reading than extracting thinking they know better than people who have spent years actually in labs.

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Do tell…whether the whole story, or just what carcinogen we should be looking into further, up to you. Sucks to hear you had to toss that much!

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Yes, actually, I did pass this by two chemists in the field of pharmacology and both approved. One has worked as the Chief Scientific Officer in an US based pharmaceutical company and a Danish biotech company. These are the people who should do a peer review and they came back with an approval that the content was accurate.

Gray Wolf has also published this as a contributing author article.

This study reports on the metabolic pathways of the solvents, then covers the regulatory limits and what that means in real numbers. So all this is by the books, nothing abstracted from stoned minds.

If you understood the sciences and regulations, you wouldn’t have said the things you said. So, if you want to have a conversation on the data, tha’ts fine. But stop the hysterics, its a bad look for a grown man. You mentioned someone getting overwhelmed by fumes. Guess what? That is an OSHA workplace issue, not an FDA. OSHA regulates all airborne occupational exposures and the FDA does solids, ie, liquid states of chemicals in and on the body. OSHA has taken the PDE, converted it to gas volumes and calculates the maximum exposures. So if your guy got overwhelmed, this is a business that is in violation of OSHA standards, above and beyond the PDE maximums. One thing you have to understand that Safety Data Sheet toxicology’s are exposures above PDE.

So do some homework and get it right. Talking smack is a waste of everyone’s time.