Yes. But I’m trying to get my head around all the issues. Besides potency what other tests would characterize this for you?
You have “waxes”….are there cannabinoids there?!?
ALL you have access to is “potency”. So it’s about how you ask the question.
How much did I start with?
Where did it go?
Is there any in THIS waste stream?
How much?
Can I change that? (Longer soak?!?)
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Hey Cyclopath,
I did ask those questions this past month in an update to graywolf. Here’s a .PDF version of that email with all the test results. That’s a bit off point to the question I posed here about what am i seeing in Rapid Winterization. All three tests used Rapid Winterization on each jar (8 jars) with the above pictures showing the waxes produced.
I will run another test to compare winterizing 4oz of hemp the traditional way, and now with Rapid Winterization. This will answer the question on efficacy.
Anything else I should be considering?
Email-RSO 2.0 Update - GW 02-08-2022.pdf (595.8 KB)
Hey Cyclopath,
I ended that last reply with a question regarding that .PDF, not the main reason I posted this morning, let me get this back on track.
Basically, what I want to know is if two solvents with different polarities caused near room temp wax formation. The waxes start forming as the warm ethanol cools. At room temp you can see this happen. Placing the bowl in the freezer for an hour finishes the wax crystallization. Longer freezes just turn the wax a darker green, probably with more cannabinoids. (thats easy to prove in testing)
So, does extracting with Isopropyl, removing the Isopropyl, then dissolving these less polar resins with higher polarity Ethanol really setup this room temperature winterization? That .PDF shows the volumes of plant, alcohol and times if anyone wants to give it a try.
I’m failing to see where and why there is any confusion here.
You’ve (re)discovered that Isopropyl seems to extract at least one type of compound that is not soluble in Ethanol at most reasonable temperatures. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen mention of that effect somewhere else on here, possibly above in this very thread.
It’s also why many ethanol extractors run very cold - if you’re at -60°, ethanol is not going to be very enthusiastic about dissolving any lipid type compounds.
Is this due to the polarity of ethanol relative to isopropyl? Polarity affects a great many things, and seems to be an important factor in much of our work, but I’ll let someone with chemistry training chime in on that one.
If you were to extract with isopropyl, remove the solvent, dissolve it in ethanol, chill, filter, recover the ethanol, and do the same procedure with methanol, I’d be willing to bet that you would find even more compounds falling out.
Do it again, and dissolve in some other solvent, and you may find yet more compounds that fall out or don’t dissolve in the new solvent.
As you’ve discovered, changing the temperature of your solvent may have a similar effect.
It is possible that water-washing your crude before dissolving it in ethanol could remove a bunch of your undesirable water-soluble compounds and improve your finished product.
Modifying your water wash with the addition of salt - which salt? Start with good ol table salt and explore outwards from there … - may change what happens once again.
Thank you for your input.
You’ve (re)discovered that Isopropyl seems to…
True. I tell people I haven’t found a diamond in the rough, I found a diamond in a parking lot. This area of chemistry is well travelled…
Is this due to the polarity of ethanol relative to isopropyl? Polarity affects a great many things, and seems to be an important factor in much of our work, but I’ll let someone with chemistry training chime in on that one.
Thats what I’m hoping for. Not so confused, but not being a chemist, I’m looking for confirmation that my theory is correct.
If you were to extract with isopropyl, remove the solvent, dissolve it in ethanol, chill, filter, recover the ethanol, and do the same procedure with methanol, I’d be willing to bet that you would find even more compounds falling out.
HAHAHAHA. The Methanol arrived yesterday, testing to commence. Its good for testing, but not so much for home MMJ patients. More to come later…
>As you’ve discovered, changing the temperature of your solvent may have a similar effect.
Solubility decreases with decreasing temps. I do observe that here in the solution. It starts by forming wine veins on the side of the bowl then forming waxes.
It is possible that water-washing your crude before dissolving it in ethanol could remove a bunch of your undesirable water-soluble compounds and improve your finished product.
Actually, my process does do that. I add saturated brine water to salt-out the Isopropyl which causing phospholipids to immediately fall out. Here’s the video -
I call this whole step ‘Silting’ as it also cleans out water solubles, trichome shells with the phospholipids. This new step removes the polar and semi-polar compounds leaving a richer non-polar base once reduced (My tests in the above .PDF show that is not necessary, but still beneficial for the Rapid Winterization). The control jars were a straight wash in Isopropyl, reduced to oil, then re-dissolved in warm ethanol. Once the ethanol starts cooling is when you see waxes form. So, Silting with its brine wash helps by removing the polar stuff, leaving condensed non-polar lipids.
Another question I have is this. Do non-polar lipids have varying degrees of polarity? I envision Isopropyl, being less polar, collects non-polar lipids that Ethanol cant touch because of it’s higher polarity. I haven’t seen an analysis showing a range of polarity with lipids.
Modifying your water wash with the addition of salt - which salt? Start with good ol table salt and explore outwards from there … - may change what happens once again.
I have been using table salt with and without anti-caking compounds. Also Kosher, Pickling and ice cream salt without anti-caking compounds work. It’s the same sodium chloride packed differently for different uses. You can salt-out Ethanol with Potassium Chloride but it spikes the pH up to 12 introducing a whole set of other problems.
Oh, the other part of Rapid Winterization is the volume of alcohol is vastly reduced, therefore requires less time to freeze. 1 oz of oil would take 280ml for a 10:1 ratio, just over a cup. The time required for freezing is now substantially lower. I can take 2 oz hemp and have refined winterized finished oil in 2 hours, instead of 24 hours. The distilling time dictates the overall time. The wash, Silting, winterizing, and final reduction are all very fast.
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Here’s something funny. I used ChatGPT to explore the different types of salt. Seems Magnesium Chloride might be a good, but more expensive, solution for salting-out Isopropyl.
2023-02-24 Type of Salts.pdf (48.8 KB)
You are aware that chatgpt is only trained on how to CHAT?
It will happily make shit up…,
Useful tool, but it’s responses need to be taken with…you guessed it…a grain of salt.
And priming it with nonsense (Various sodium chloride salts have different properties.) won’t help.
Q: 4 of those are not salt! why did you list them?
Because I’m a #%%^%?! Chat bot who knows nothing but how to string words into sentences. I made shit up because I thought you wanted me to…
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ChatGPT does frequently spot out nonsense. It has no knowledge, it is just a word generator.
However, sometimes it can be useful as a research summarization tool. I’ve never played with salting things out of aqueous/alcohol solutions, so I’m interested to see where this exploration leads.
Unless of course someone who has been down this particular path feels like shining a light on any presently unseen traps?
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If interrogated/primed correctly…
@MimiEmu over here we have an example of chatgpt fabricating a citation…
I only verified the first Mg salt vendor. Have you verified the rest, or looked into what percentage Mg they offer?