Decarb bio mass prior to extract

Hash and Stuff Pre/Post-Processing
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Hi everyone and thanks for your time and help

Currently we extract on co2, then winterize, then decarb and SPD. We are not really interested in terpens.

From what I red it would improve the yeld from the co2 extraction to decarb prior the extraction.

We have a pressure oven but I can’t use it to decarb because I use it to do sterilizations and also the volume of extraction is to big vs the oven (10kg/day)

Is there a way how to decarb in sousvide ?

I was planning maybe in sealing the biomass in sousvide and then putting the sealed bags in a steam oven for 90min at 95°C.

Would this work ? Would it be worth it to buy a steam oven to do this?

Thanks for your help and advices !

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What is your scale like? Decarbing is easy, just time and temp. The challenge is to make sure that all the material sees the right temp for the right account of time. It’s easier to decarboxylate oil than flower because you can stir it and keep the temps bet tight.

My understanding specific to CO2 processing is that it’s the dryness of the product, not the decarboxylation, that makes it more efficient to extract. You need beer low moisture content for max efficiency on your extractor. For that reason, sous vide may not be your best bet. A big, forced air oven is your huckleberry. Here are a couple:

https://us.hollandgreenscience.com/products/decarb-ovens.html

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Hey, thanks for your answer. I process around 60kg per day. The stirring method is what we do currently but I am trying to analyse each improvement possible in the chain. I red that co2 extracted better the non acidific forms. Also, even in the case of moist biomass, wouldn’t the water go into the cold trap?

The sealing sous vide was just an idea as I have the sealing machine and bags but maybe there is other possibilities.

Thanks for the links !

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There are so many smart people here, they’ll chime in and you’ll get some good ideas.

Also, I can’t recommend my pal Dr Jon Thompson highly enough. His content is excellent and very thorough. https://extraktlab.com/about/

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So what is your current overall mass balance?

What % of your input cannabinoids end up in your output?

How much is in your distillate waste?
Your spent biomass?
Your “fats & waxes”?

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I will double check tomorrow the numbers in notebook but this is what I have in mind.

1kg of biomass (very good quality)
180/200g crude
Loosing of 30% during winterization + decarb

The decarb will be 60/65% cbd, 2.5/3% thc

If SPD, 77% cbd, 4/4.5% thc, around 20% of loosing.

Edit: COA of bio mass is 0.6 thc, 16 cbd

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Looking for mass balance on actual cannabinoids.

You want them. Where did they go?!?

1kg @16% CBD is 160g of actual CBD

If your decarbed crude is 180g of 60% CBD you have left 52 grams in the biomass and captured 108g

If you got 200g at 65% you only left 30g behind (130/160 = 81% of your cannabinoids, which isn’t terrible).

But you’re saying you get 180-200crude and THEN lose 30%, at which point it is NOW 65% (on a good day).

Which is only 56% of the cannabinoids that were in your biomass. Which is horrible even for Co2 I believe.

You loose mass (CO2) during decarb, but should not loose much in the way of cannabinoids. You can absolutely drop them out of ethanol along with your fats and waxes.

How many grams of 77% distillate per kg input?
How many grams of decarbed crude?

Have you done potency tests on your waste?
Spent biomass?
“Fats”?
“Heads”?
“Tails”?

I would expect “left in biomass”, followed by “fats”, followed by “tails” for actual number of grams CBD left on the table.

I’ve always heard that decarb gives better yield, but have also been told it takes more work. Not actually qualified to address that…I’ve not been enamored enough by the output to spend much time on CO2…seems like you can make nice terps, but I believe there are easier options if you don’t already have one laying around

From a process optimization standpoint you need to follow the bit you CARE about.

See where every gram of it goes.

Figure out where the biggest or easiest gains are, and concentrate there.

There are certainly some very clever folks running CO2 that lurk around here that can probably guide you through pre vs post extraction decarb

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Yes, THC, CBD, and other decarboxylated cannabinoids are easier to extract than the acidic ones like THCa and CBDa, with respect to CO2 extraction.

To go off of @cyclopath , in my experience depending on what your biomass tests out at, say 22% THCa, if you are extracting a kg of the biomass, 220grams of THCa should ideally be the yield goal. But if you decarboxylate it before hand, you should theoretically have 191 grams of THC since THC is 87% of the weight of THCa.

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@Stock and immediately one o’ the smart folks jumps in to make a liar out of me :rofl:

At least he doesn’t use my name in the same sentence…

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Actually didn’t read all that you wrote, just saw and thought to myself, here goes @cyclopath again :joy:.

@Stock decarbing the biomass before you extract can be a logistical nightmare depending on the volume but I think it gives a better end product then if you were to decarb the extracted oil.

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Thanks a lot for your help,

After checking in detail in our batch records my previous numbers were wrong. Here are the actual numbers.

COA before extracting:

15% cbda
1.2% cbd
0.4% thca
0.14% d9

After extracting, spent bio mass COA

2.2% cbda
0.25% cbd
0.08% thca
0.01% d9

1.86 kg crude

Post winterization 1.66kg (avg loosing of 15%)

COA winterized

53.8% cbda
15.3% cbd
0.8% thca
1.2% d9

Decarb, avg loosing of 15%, post decarb 1.37kg

COA decarbd

66% cbd
3% d9

For the SPD I don’t have the numbers yet.

We struggle to make hplc on crude or waxes as usually it stucks the machine (maybe it is possible to do it and we don’t know how…)

Edit: when you speak about heads and tails what exactly do you mean ? Thanks

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You can’t perform your distillation without collecting (tossing) them…

search (here) is trivial: Search results for 'heads tails' - Future4200
but even the all Gnowing one will tell you what’s up if you use “heads tails distillation”.

That is (most of) the DATA required to do the mass balance…now do the math and show (yourself) how you’re doing. maybe read some of the hits to “mass balance” first. for simplicity, just use TAC rather than the individual cannabinoids at first. you MIGHT find you’re loosing one cannabinoid in particular as a given step, and that MIGHT be a feature, so looking at them individually is not unreasonable.

how much of what you put in the vat did you get out? (initial extraction efficiency)
how much did you leave behind (you need weights as well as potency)?
did you loose cannabinoids at winterization?
are they in your “fats”?
how much did you loose to distillation?
where are they? (heads? tails?)

the goal is to know where every gram of your CBD(a) went. as a percentage of the CBD that went in. which is more informative than the number of grams of stuff you got at each step eg: you lose mass at decarb, you DONT lose cannabinoids. just following raw extract yield makes decarb look lossy…

the math has been worked here MANY MANY times. including upthread.

I’d do the first one for you, but I’d have to guess at how many kg you put in (10 this time?!?). looks like about 85% efficiency on you primary extraction. need weights to be truly accurate (because your spent biomass weighs less than your input did)

happy to help anybody get the concept of: follow the cannabinoids, not the cadabinoids…. because imo it is a critical step in optimizing this game.

having in house analytics is a great start. if you don’t understand mass balance, you’re not actually leveraging it correctly.

yep, sample prep matters. search on the subject, then ask questions. if you’re lucky some kind soul will (has already) dropped their SOP.

…and 50% over all efficiency from biomass to distillate is not unheard of for CO2.

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Thanks a lot for your links, your time and help!!!

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A simple analysis of your raffinate (post-extracted biomass) will tell you what you are actually leaving behind and help you to dial in your SOP parameters.

Don’t fix what isn’t broken.

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