After repairing and servicing all brands of chillers for 20 years I have become frustrated with existing OEM’s support, quality, and available products.
We are in the design phase to bring a chiller platform to market that is reliable, high quality, and reasonably priced with service support and parts easily accessible.
The base platform will offer the highest quality of manufacture and a flexible heat removal capacity at -60°C. We plan to have base models with
2, 4, and 6 kW heat removal at -60°C with 25 Liter/min flow rate (Ethanol) at that same temperature. Pricing will reflect each kW range and customers will have the ability to add options for communications, temp ranges etc. They will also be able to upgrade existing units to higher capacity as throughput demands change.
As we are still in the design phase I am interested in operator feedback.
Please contact me if you have an interest in providing valued input and experience. We hope to incorporate as much utility in the base platform as is reasonable. The schedule for design completion is Q2 2025 or sooner with units available for delivery 4-6 weeks after that.
My $0.02 - Don’t skimp on the controls. The hardware cost difference to do barebones bang bang control vs all singing all dancing remote everything with pretty pictures is fuck all.
The amount that some of these companies upcharge to allow remote access to data - even read-only - is highway robbery.
Also, if your controls engineer insists everything has to be done in ladder, fire them and find one that understands technology that came out after 1996.
We agree. I am comming into this from the semiconductor and biotech industry and, as well, a Service Engineer perspective. For end cost we are thinking that touch panel and plc control are not needed as off the shelf controllers do plenty. Analog and RS 485 would seem to suffice for remote operation and data collection. Japan will manufature and we will be the dealer and factory service support with parts and advice with the option to have the units repaired in Oregon or at the customer site via our people, supporting 3rd party service, or the end user.
Does that sound reasonable and like it would be an improvement?
From what ive observed in our shop the operators either have to deal with cheap units from China or over engineered units from Germany. Both have lackluster service support. We looked at producing domestic but our relationship with Japan OEM meant we already had high quality manufature and engineer on tap in existing service infrastructure.
The G&D we have uses RS485, and I would consider that to be the bare minimum of acceptability from a comms standpoint - just about everything speaks RS485. Modbus TCP would be nice.
So, is that an improvement? Over undocumented Chinese stuff, yes. Over acceptable quality North American stuff? Not really.
So long as you give the ability to have close to full control remotely, it would be ok-ish in my mind, because then I could write my own control strategies and dump it over the bus as required. And I’ve already got the setup for that because that’s how I’ve controlled all of our braindead chillers.
Of course, I doubt too many of your customers are doing full temperature swing crystallization protocols, so they’d likely be happy with “turn it off at end of shift/week and kick back on before the next shift arrives.”
I just code in basic python and use basic boards + relays to control some basic tune-able PIDs that run some cheapo julabo circulators for crash control.
I guess its a question of scale. Like, for the CLS, an actual cryochiller that’s kinda stupid is honestly exactly what most folks need in my experience. No one is out there fine-tuning their extraction temperatures. They want cold, they want things kept cold, and that’s relatively simple to achieve with a big ole coolant reservoir and oversized heat exchange surfaces (relative to like, a unistat 915).
A cryochiller that’s simple enough that your local HVAC guy can diagnose and repair it, and simple to maintain that your lab tech I’s can run its preventative maintenance with no hassle, is ideal from my perspective. Bonus points for building it from easy-to-source parts. Extra bonus points for flair like inline-dessication/coolant (ethanol) maintenance.
We’ve got this ethanol system that’s down every other week because it’s trying to be too smart. Decimal and Polar something or other. No reason for the failures but software/unnecessary networking.
Which is exactly why something that will accept remote commands is acceptable, and if they’re not going to do the work of making it reliably smart, preferable.
Making something properly smart and reliable is (apparently) a lot harder than most people think, and/or something most manufacturers don’t want to bother with.
Even the huber we’ve got that happens to have the most expensive offered feature pack was unable govern itself for a whole shift without regular supervision and so we run it remotely with python scripts.
It’s mostly able to follow directions, so long as we provide them one at a time and always follow up and check that it’s done what we’ve asked.
I believe we’re using some proprietary huber comms protocol over ethernet instead of RS485, but the result is the same.
A brick shithouse chiller that isn’t green taxed from here to MJBiz and back would be good for the industry… at least those who still rely on having deep and wide wells of cold.
From my perspective, I think we can have a reliable brute force chiller made aesy to service from a modular approach. For instance one platform with the ability to isolate components in the refrigeration circuit and plumbing circuit for replacement not only from failure but also to install larger capacity compressor or cooling valve as well as swapping out filter dryer or pump. A situation where you dont need to drain all the coolant or recover all the gas for basic repair or PM. A basic remote package for remote on/off, temp control, safety interlock control and EMO with option to get more specific as an option makes sense.
Currently we are designing the refrigeration circuit to be single stage GWP compliant gas, water cooled condenser, up to 6kW cooling capacity at -60°C 24/7. That part is essentially done but the trade off is physical size. It will be on casters of course but still big. Durability and quality of manufacture we cannot sacrifice for obvious reasons but we will target the price gap between cheap dangerous unit and over engineered overpriced units that have crappy support designed to sell you a new unit by strangling the service support.
I trained at Julabo US when they used to actually make chillers in PA and worked on both those and Huber + 30 other OEMs in the last 15 years. In my opinion Julabo service is better than Huber but still kinda sucks. Because we are essentially a service company I am aproaching design from that view. It is very frustraiting to us to require a unit be sent in due to lack of OEM supplying schematics, parts, or simply ghosting the discussion when we FA to root cause and request a parts quote. Im just tierd of reverse engineering used equipment to perform a workaround repair on decent equipment that is “not supported” way too soon.
Rant complete.
I do appreciate any suggestions and experiences with brands and models (good and bad)
I have some pretty cool refrigeration tech. Just received patent grant for it. We should talk.
All of our systems utilize the tech for +50c to -50c on demand heating and cooling, but with some simple augmentations we can get down to below -150c with little power consumption. Gonna be running the upgrade here in NY soon.
During prototyping about 4-5 years ago I did a basic test of the augmentation and got 20lb of propane to -110c in about 30 minutes with 17 amps @ 220v. It actually started at 17 amps and worked it’s way down to 12 amps by the time the 20lb was at -110c.
I am highly interested in branching out into the refrigeration market outside of hydrocarbon extraction. This is a billion dollar industry that hasn’t seen innovation like this since it’s first creation (not to toot my own horn but there’s no other way to really see it). My tech literally turns refrigeration upside down. The Coefficient of performance literally goes off the charts under -60c.
I have a huge focus on low power consuming true cryogenic systems (colder than -150c) that provide high kw capacity @ cryo temps by using itself to cool itself so that way it can then use its cooled self to cool itself further. Pretty crazy how well it works.
With extraction systems leveling off, you should think of secondary markets to serve or youll end up like one of the many brands that came out with decent products too late (decimal, prodegy, rebranded agrify/precision). Illuminated did so well because they answered multiple problems, solvent recovery bottle necks, utilitity usage, and true high throughput hydrocarbon extraction. Cannabis is in such freefall that vendors were trying to cancel booths at MJBiz. Clients are canceling equipment POs
left and right. Chillers and equipment are sitting wrapped and selling at 10-25% of original price.
You guys are right, TCUs are a billion dollar industry because of petro, aerospace, chem, biopharm, ag tech, lasers, and so much more. These systems require heating, cooling, communication, programming for runs, special certifications depending on environmenta. A high powered -60C as a sole product isnt a sound business move, unless youre doing this in a pre owned building with a small team and virtually no overhead. Also good chillers are on a 15 year purchase cycle, youll really need people to purchase your service packages and consumables, and not use 3rd parties.
May be bias bc I work at one of those german chiller companies, but I also have a lot of market insight over the last few years.
Quantum computing, natural gas processing, industrial chilling, etc. is due for its revolution.
We are still moving extraction systems like hot cakes but eventually it will level off. TCU’s are the future.
The local college, CSU, has a powerhouse attached to the river where they do a bunch of energy testing and I’m going to make a small tabletop demo unit that can operate anywhere and freeze some ethanol as a demo.
Ultimately I want to make very big versions of this and put it into all kinds of critical infrastructure. The energy savings are exponential.
Below is example calculation of coefficient of performance on 20 lb of liquid propane compared to the power draw on the compressor along with the cooling capacity attained at the pressure. Once we get below -70c it gets a little crazy and can easily get up into the hundreds for COP.
Happy to discuss the refrigeration tech anytime. i can always be reached via our website.
I may be late to the party but not realy building a brand or business model. ours works fine. i have seen aside from our traditional business the demand for repair increase on chillers in this range (brute force cold ethanol <-40°C). it may be that that is tappering off but we’re not focused in any one industry.
Just been doing this long enough to spec a unit in a factory with a chiller division. regarding new units sitting around for whatever reason, thats happening all over. I have access to overstock of x80 -70°C chillers originally designed for a Semiconductor Prober tool available at $30K ea. They can also be used with ethanol and have full warranty and comms package with moisture removal etc. if anyone is interested I can fwd the manuals and spec sheets. Still they are air cooled and better for glassware as the flow is only 9lpm. same chiller is going to the end user at $70K would be my guess.
The benefit I would like to introduce is Parts Service and Support sans the ulterior motives + hitting the price point for those who just need a reliable product without having to pay for bells and whistles. You can have them no problem but its up to you.
Decimal for their equipment scale, asthetjc and euGMP compliance for market readiness. Prodegy had their own chiller white labeled or made by their parent brand or something which was sized right for their systems iirc and beefy. Nothing really to say about precision except they were once mighty and ive used their products, but there was no reason for them to re-reenter the market as Agrify with slightly less undersized vessels and lines. All of this was kind of too late.
Also cannabis doesnt pay bills. Take on terms and never answer the phone. How many of these losses can a new business take, if all major businesses offer n30,45,60, even 90 as standard.
For the aesthetic?! euGMP??? They’re Oregon-based though…I wonder why they didn’t bother with cGMP?
Prodigy’s site reads like an AI-fueled start-up that just happens to accidentally make extraction equipment. While it has more info on it than an obvious scam site, it’s borderline in my opinion, and their systems look like bog-standard xtractordepot systems that’ve been fed through an ai image generator.
Every Precision system I’ve seen, heard of, or touched myself has been modified to hell and back. Well, not every one, I’ve seen one vanilla in the wild, and it leaked like a sieve. Their small platforms are too small, and their “large” platforms are too costly relative to their competition.
I think youre misreading what I am saying. Im not a fan of these companies lol. The point is entering the market in these conditions is rough and having something to differentiate is crucial.
Nah I gotchu, I’m just adding my two cents in by saying that I think it’s a little bit more than just market conditions or some such.
Most of these “new” entrants are simply bad, or near-direct one-offs of other companies yet no price listing. There’s simply little incentive to purchase them.
To add to your statement - Something to differentiate is crucial, ideally something positive. Being bad is a differentiator, certainly.
This is coming from the frustrated mind of someone tasked with keeping a system from one of those newer companies operational when it seems to be near-intentionally suicidal.
