no real need for sodium in the plant extraction, it just popped up as an ion pair in a Cerillant sample? More of an example of ignorance of my part than a proposed extracted ion pair.
As mentioned in some detail earlier, Hydronium ions and Ca++
are known to be pumped into extracellular spaces in plants (above) and serve as the most probable candidates. The former being favored based on the weak ion exchange data of tertiary amine resin
removal of THCA from alkane.
As I said, the presence of sodium in the Cerilliant standard might be an artifact of how the THCaH standard was prepared. You yourself proposed that; the source of sodium could have been from a brine wash.
And I am not ignorant of that possibility, I think it is pretty likely. Either way, unless Cerilliant share with you how their standard was prepared, we cannot know for sure.
Electrospray products are formed under conditions that you will not normally ever see. The amount of electrostatic energy present will create ions you wonât normally find.
I wouldnât just assume that a species observed following electrospray ionization has any relation to itâs normal form.
In the absence of Na-salts, the sodium is artifact of contamination.
FIA is direct injection, just eliminates the column and looks at signal for extended periods, say two minutes .
The sodium has to come from some where?
In the FIA HRAM study noted above, The FIA studyâŚoperating in the
plus mode, the relative ion abundance of the THCA (M+Na)+ ion is
5 to 10 fold greater than the THCA (M+H)+ ion.
Are these adduct ratios (with out supplemental addition of counter ions or salt analytes to begin with) normal? No idea.
I think AES ICP may be the best analytical technique to
test for salts.
@ marmoris: âI wouldnât just assume that a species observed following electrospray ionization has any relation to itâs normal form.â
Agree⌠what form you see in electrospray you would not expect in normal solution chemistry.
@mitokid : I edited the reference to âignoranceâ to be clear
I was referring to my own lack of knowledge of the complexities
of operating the electrotrospray MS under the conditions outlined in that article.
Further readings considering resorcinol hydroxy and 4methoxy salicyclate examplesâŚI would have to say your insight into the
metal salts of cannabinoic acids seems valuable to say the least.
@mitokid
"If crystalline cannabinoid acid metal salts were stable, they would have appeared in the chemical literature a long time ago.
The fact that Cerilliantâs THCa-H was supplied in MeCN may have contributed to stability of any THCa-Na contamination. The paper lack experimental section and doesnât seem to have been peer-reviewed. Who knows where those sodium ions came from, workup artifact, syringe, sample prep?
The authorsâ findings, spurious or not, does not extrapolate to extraction of THCa-Na from biomass with a LPG, resulting in downstream complications in the attempted diamond formation step."
Especially the later.
I am inclined to cross the metal salts off the list as possible extractable ion pairs from trichome soup AND as interfering agents in current THCA crystal production. A couple of lab experiments should lay this all to rest.
Is it possible to have an extractable ion pair in solution chemistryâŚbut unstable in solid state?
Thanks.
Hit it with some lye!!
@DropWise 
Salting out of cannabinoids is one of my fun projects especially with partial decarboxilation
These where salted with harsh reagents
So if anybody has a milder (ammonium) suggestion please do I tried some but none came close in yield to the harsh reagent
Unless they are being held as trade secret, or pending Patents.
for example, I made some chelated THC-Mg salts at a former employer as part of a JV that had a purple to pink hue, but cannot discuss it due NDA
I wouldnât suggest smoking it, but chelated cannabinoids have some interesting potential in the Pharma drug delivery world, companies which IME is not too keen on outing their Tech before the Patent is issued
Interesting. Were you able to prove the pink hue was from the THC-Mg?
Thereâs an issue people deal with when using magnesium silicates where the oil turns purple after filtration or distillation. Weâve assumed itâs a purity thing where weâve stripped so much color the material oxidizes.
It seems to be reversible with heat around 150C and then it returns after the oil cools. Does that fit with the properties of THC-Mg?
Other samples do seem to turn purple having no magnesium in the processing but itâs not always reversible.
Distillate into isolate via column Chroma, with the NMR results of 98.8% with 1.1% THCa and .1% other cannabinoids (D8 unwanted side reactions due to PH)
The Hue was dependant on the PH
It is Reversible, and the resulting THC Isolate is similar to the Medusa stones (Isolate with imperfect crystalline lattice structure possible due to inclusions of solvent) everyone is working on, but if done with heat instead of chemistry the heat lead to some degradation
*Edited to change THCa > THC in second paragraph Per Dukejohnson comment below
Very very interesting
So it was a salt made with d9 and not thca?
McWestâŚthank youâŚ
In particular I was quoting another contributor and referencing
to the solid form of the sodium salt in particular.
Because plant cells are known pump both Ca++ and H+
into vacuolesâŚcertainly the Ca++ salt of (dimer) needs to be looked at.
I have a small sample of high purity âchalk formâ produced by the
âselective and repeated rosin press techniqueâ , I need AES ICPâŚto
look for metal salts.
Your note may be very helpful to some trying to delineate the chalk
medusa crystal phenomena.
So in the âfew dozen hintsâ listâŚI guess we better add back the divalents ?"
I am confused about your response th Alex Siegel. The first sentence refers to THC and the second to THCA??? can you clarify?
âButane worksâŚâ we are concerned with possibility of carboxylate salts in Trichome.
A Mg salt of thc would have to be prepared as a phenolate from about pH 11âŚand be a dimer salt?
Unless it is pH 12 and thc - - ion chelated a single Mg++ ???
but to think of itâŚ(non-carboxyl?), phenolate salts of thca in solution are known to exist and provide the basis for selective
extraction as ion pairs into slightly polar solvents that are immiscible with water. Read carefully and donât be afraid to âoverthinkâ a bit:
However, no one has outlined the exact nature of such ion pairs.
Exact pH control (12.5 to 13) and selection of ether solvent is importantâŚand not to be repetitive but as always, pH less than 3 (acid wash!!!) is essential for the COOH form.
These are solution salts which can be manipulated.
good Spot. Edited. THCA and THC was tested as input, with D9 having better results. as the starting material was d9 and not thca the resulting Isolate created was THC. the trace THCa was likely co distilled
1% thca after distillation is still like unheard of unless Iâm mistaken. Vacuum must have been crazy deep for thca to make it through at all. I could be way off though. When I want d9 I make clean THCa so Iâm be no means an authority on distillation.
Quiet impossible indeed @Dukejohnson there is no way I believe it spossible to distill with still thc-a in the distillate
Thought Iâd heard tell of folks getting CBDa across on a wiperâŚI would imagine the same is possible with thca.
âŚand I have worked with a tech who âbumpedâ rather than distilled in a spd. He might well have managed to get thca into the receiving flask if someone else didnât do the decarb first.
I get THCA in my distillate frequently from wiped filmâŚ
Edit: the 2.31% is an input, not a distillate. There are two or three samples and then an average(in bold),
Here is a better example. First data set is input material (Decarb dewaxed crude) and second set is distillate.
On wiped film it might be possible not sure who would want to wipeundecarbed material in the first place but if heat residence time overall is short I am sure it s possible
Having a difstak on the rig making it even more so possible still I am not convinced
If done per usual sop decarboxilate prior to distillation
