Anti-oxidation R&D

There really is a very simple solution @cyclopath and just minutes before
I blew up my first sublimator I was prepping the compound for it. This of course now gets shifted a month as I do labs like this once a month for my med.

Very simple - store the water clear purified compound in a plastic dispensing syringe and if it is stored with no air bubbles then voila! Without question this will preserve the compound from oxidation. What I had set up was my bell jar vacuum chamber so I can load the dispensers vertically holding them in a balsa wood block.

The idea was to gently heat the compound then pull it up into the syringe straight off the cold finger and out of vacuum and pull it up until it was full and the plunger comes out. Then into the vac chamber and pull down to one micron to get the bubbles. If care is taken replacing the plunger into a full dispenser should be simple enough without introducing a lot of air.

I ran into another fellow on instagram that also makes water clear stuff like I do. This is what he said he needed to do for storage and claims it is very long term. So long as oxygen is excluded from contact then the compound for practical purposes does not tend to break down measurably. I had to put my plans for this on hold and wanted to show pictures but the implosion created recovery problems that took my time. I plan to use my box of various dispensers next month and fill a small one to hold out and monitor the thing in pictures over a long time to verify.

I gotta log nowā€¦ my vitamin C gets stale if I donā€™t vape it fresh squeezedā€¦:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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You said everything I would have! Great points. By extra chemicals you mean vitamin E? I think Iā€™ve heard it doesnā€™t do much to help and ruins the taste.

@ghettoyellow tossing around accusations, assumptions and calling people scammers is certainly a way to get respect. A question was asked and I gave a scientifically correct answer. Iā€™m not saying your answer was rude and an asshat move per se Iā€™m just saying an open discussion about the actual question is better than being an asshat.

@slooty one of the chemicals I was discussing was Vit E. There are many anti-oxidants and most are unacceptable for our uses. Iā€™m happy to get into more options if you are interested

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@ghettoyellow

itā€™s a good thing you donā€™t need it cuz your a schmuck. See, no sugar coating.

For the record my answer is 100% scientifically correct. You know how I know this? Because i donā€™t do ā€œtekā€ I do ā€œscienceā€.

After reading your other posts Iā€™m good, the internet is full of people like you.

Your ā€œscienceā€ is so advanced that you have to resort to dark containers, 100% bubble-free syringes (which, if youā€™ve ever tried to do on a scale larger than 3 pieces youā€™ll find out is extremely difficult to near impossible in a practical/economical way), storing in cold until it needs to move, and all sorts of desperate oddball measures. And even then it will get you inferior results.

Per your statement about excessive degumming resulting in greater likelihood of oxidation of cannabinoids (that salmon pink rather than the red/brown discoloration), and therefore the phospholipids-of-many-names behaving as antioxidants with regard to the cannabinoidsā€¦ That precisely follows with my observations and hypotheses on the subject. Thank you for noting that behavior here!

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I had read that the rose red fraction at the end may be cannabinol but I canā€™t find any documentation to support this, I think you may be right about the oxidation.

Yes, my hypothesis (still not fully known due to a lack of testing for the compounds I suggest) is that the red/brown discoloration that we usually see asa thin layer on top of distillates is due to oxidation of phospholipid triglycerides (you could think of it as the MCT version of lecithin), which act as antioxidants protecting the decarboxylated cannabinoids by sequestering oxygen radicals. However, degumming breaks down and removes these things, which allows a different sort of reddish (a light salmon pink) discoloration by oxidation of cannabinoids to occur. It is confusing, but folks just need to understand that antioxidants are just things that oxidize more readily than the other things in a mixture, and often they discolor (e.g. ascorbic acid, aka: vitamin C turning brown), and that some cannabinoid oxidation (such as THC to CBN) is colorless while some (such as CBD or THC to quinoids like HU-133) is colored, but differently colored than the oxidation of the antioxidant lecithin type compounds.

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It is not the CBN itself that is red; pure CBN is colorless. However, the majority of the CBN co-distills with the often red-colored last fraction(s) during distillation (aka: tails).

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Also, the light salmon pink color is usually referred to as ā€œroseā€, so be careful when you see people talk about rose or rosay distillate. They are talking about the cannabinoid-to-quinoid pink oxidation most often seen in water clear (transparent white) distillate, not the red tails you are describing as rose, here. Just fyi about the slang. :wink:

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@Photon_noir Thank you, that was a great explanation! I would wonder what the red tails are? Additional oxidation or terpenes, flavonoids , ect. ?

I absolutely understand the issue with anti-oxidants, worked with them in other fields. At those times no one was ingesting the finished product though :wink:

I tried to find the properties of the compounds in cannabis to see what may be causing the colors (bho), which ones may crystallize but besides chemical composition and things like b.p. there just isnā€™t a lot of literature. Mostly it is anecdotal evidence, but thatā€™s this world right now.

Thanks for the heads up on the lingo, I speak more of the chemistry speak (I am a chemist) but donā€™t claim deep understanding or reactions that may occur in the flask (not an Organic chemist!) so itā€™s good to get a bit of both.

Wow, that sounds really interesting. What testing are you lacking? Minor degradation products?

Correct. Quinoids, plant gum, plant wax, veg oil, etc. Basically everything we try to remove or decompose and remove.

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been thinking on this issue a bit. I plan on soon having an SRI GC/FID configured for terps and cannabinoids. I think it will do residual solvent as well, need to check on which columns I want. But it might be possible to take some BHO, winterize and collect the fallout as a baseline for the GC. Collect tails and see if it falls on the same or slightly different retention time.

Definitely a half-assed way to go about but to a man with a hammerā€¦

back to the actual question though I have a thought there as well. alpha-terpineol and CBC have antibiotic and antifungal properties. The alpha-t is also an anti-oxidant. Have no idea what concentration is needed for effectiveness but I love to use leftovers.

The ā€œfalloutā€ would not provide an effective baseline for your absolute. It would be a good test to see the residuals, but the fats and waxes will require dilution in np solvent like hexane and hopefully not co-elute (convolute) with the cannabinoids in question. It will probably make for wide ā€œmuddyā€ peaks.

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Also, you may need a double column system if you want to do both terpenes/terpenols and cannabinois. SRI is awesome in the versatility department. It is like the Lego GC kit.

I have just been putiing in offers on older 8610c models and sourcing the columns. Even scored a nice H2 generator for $400. I need three columns and an FID detector. If I get the system at my offer. It will be a fairly cheap build. Third detector for residual solvents. Although I could probably skip that one.

And another fine hypothesis crumbles to dust. I was thinking it would be a mess of peaks but might be able to see a shift from the tails. The initial read would probably be a hot mess.

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I really did not mean to shoot your idea down at all! I think it would be great to be able to use GC-FID for all of this, since it is faster, easier, and cheaper than HPLC, but I have quite a bit of experience with analytical chemistry, GC, and even SRI units in particular. One of the biggest problems with GC, though, is the high rate of varying amounts of thermal decompositionā€¦ whether that is decarboxylation, reduction by the presence of H2, or some other mode of reactive chemical change. That is why HPLC-UV (single wavelength or most often DAD) is the standard analytical instrument for cannabis resin. However, even HPLC can be fooled, especially in the hands of operators without sufficient education or the will and workplace ethics and tools that allow them to approach perfection of analysis through careful examination of all available data (e.g. cross analyses via DAD-UV, FT-IR and nIR spectral detections to weed out spurious identification and/or convolution of peaks).

In my opinion, if you want to do in-house analytical, you should use a well-validated and majority operator-error-reducing method of detection that is entirely different than that available from 3rd-party analytical labs. For example, using the Sage Profiler II I just got, cross analyzing a purchased batch of CBD with it (and a conversation with Alex, the PhD engineer who designed and built the device), I was able to suss out an answer to a long-standing curiosity in my 3rd-party HPLC-UV-DAD analysis of the material. The seller of the CBD told us it was extracted from hemp and worked up to 99+% pure (of course), but 3rd party analysis came back with a very weird result of 96% CBD and 1% THCa! As you probably know, it is not possible with our current methods of extraction and purification to end up with THCa in our extracted CBDā€¦ especially with no detection at all of THC! I went to the lab and sat down at the computer for the HPLC-DAD that was used to analyze my sample and had the lab director bring up my sample. The chromatogram definitely had a small peak in the ROI (region of interest) for THCa, but they only use 1 wavelength in the UV range to display the relative absorption of all the standardized cannabinoidsā€¦ so I had him show me the full DAD spectrum (the full range of simultaneously collected UV wavelengths) of this ā€œTHCaā€ peak, and although it absorbed strongly in the single wavelength used for the chromatogram, the spectrum was shaped nothing like THCa or any other cannabinoid in their database! Basically, that just told me that the 1% THCa was a false positive.

Well, because of the way the Sage Profiler works on algorithmic modeling of thousands of actual pure and impure (unintentionally and intentionally oxidized, reduced, light & heat decomposed, isomerized, and otherwise degraded) samples of plant-extracted CBD-containing materials, or iow CBD with all kinds of cannabinoid, terpene, quinoid, plant matter, lipids, lecithin, sugars, etc. in the background, this CBD could not even be measured on it! Instead, the analyzer gave me a 60 to 70% ā€œfit errorā€, meaning that although the sample fit the algorithm based on all these genuine sample models by 60-70%, there was something highly absorbing of nIR light that made it 30-40% unlike any sample model ever used to create the algorithm. Combined with the information from the DAD spectrum, I now knew that this CBD was either intentionally cut with something, or it was synthetic CBD that still contained at least 4% reagents and possibly some catalyst. Since the ā€œcutā€ was only 4% and the CBD completely dissolves in any solvent I used to dissolve it with, among other evidence I collected, my guess is the latter; it is simply synthetic CBD that had not been completely purified.

I am not trying to sell the Sage Profiler units with this story, although they did decide to make me a distributor when I bought mine. Since the Profiler only analyzes THC, CBD, and their carboxylic acid counterparts, it would not completely fulfill your needs, anyway. Near infrared (nIR) like the Profiler uses is great for accurate quantitation against complex backgrounds, but it is not best for identification because the peaks are more like broad hills and valleys. I am just explaining how important cross analysis with various detection methods can be; and since every 3rd party lab uses HPLC with UV and/or MS detection, you should consider some other form of detectionā€¦ like FTIR (Fourier-transform infrared), for example. Granted, although IR makes numerous sharp peaks based on each individual bond in the molecule, giving its EM range the nickname the ā€œfingerprint regionā€, it best for pure or nearly pure materials rather than mixtures. I am hoping that some day soon there will be a company creating cannabis resin mixture fingerprinting algorithms for infrared detection technology.

For now, if you are willing to deal with cost of consumables and a bit of complexity in sample preparation, and you need something affordable but effective for various common cannabinoids, you should consider the Orange Photonics Light Lab. Unfortunately, I know of no ā€œaffordableā€ terpene analytical systems. You just have to get a HPLC system and a boat-load of standards.

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By the way, if you do want a Sage Profiler II unit, I have all the information you might need on it, including contact information for them. If you go directly to the company, just tell them I sent you: Boscia Scientific Consulting or photon_noir works. :wink:

Yeah, I think the problem with IR is it is not really a way to verify purity. It is more just another piece in the puzzle to see if ā€œthis is really what I have.ā€ I think it could be potentially more useful if you were to combine it with raman spectroscopy. Probably wouldnā€™t help you differentiate between THC and CBD so much, but definitely other cannabinoids/isomers.

Also, I want to do some work with a fluorimeter. Having both absorption and emission spectra would probably be interesting to look at.