My buddy used to buy Mexican viagra from a gas station, the kind we are talking about. That guy sold all kinds of illegal shit from behind the counter. Anecdote , sure, but yours is a fairy tale
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Smokeshops sold MDPV - Bath salts. As a cocaine alternative. Little did consumers know itās much more powerful like Meth and sent people crazy.
They sell Nitrous, Inhalants, Kratom, Hemp, Conversion noids, Tobacco, Dick pills, vagina pills and if theyre smart they sell food and beer with a convenience store ability and gas too. With a drive thru window and a small adult section. Kegs? More money.
Weāve just replaced K2 10 years later with giving people a variety of semi synthetics and mixing and hiding full synthetics right with them, hemp and cannabis under the same veil.
Instead of spraying damiana, theyre spraying hemp or loading and cutting carts.
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Large = how large? Most of the large MSOs I know are lobbying against conversions
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The FDA makes the call on GRAS, not the US legislature. To my knowledge, the US legislature has never forced the FDA to make a GRAS call. Happy to be corrected if I am wrong about this one.
The FDA started making GRAS calls in the 1940ās, and they have a well-established division for receiving, evaluating, and approving/denying GRAS request documents. The US Legislature has littleāif anyācapacity to receive, evaluate, and approve/deny GRAS requests.
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I canāt comment too specifically but its a very large operator. You know them.
Iāll tread lightly here since my knowledge of the regulations is at a novice level at bestā¦
Does the fact that cannabinoid-rich hemp/cannabis oil has been in the food supply in many European countries long before 1994 play a role in these cannabinoids being considered ODI (Old Dietary Ingredient) and being granted GRAS status to be used in dietary supplements and functional foods? Or does the ODI v NDI (New Dietary Ingredient) classification apply to ingredients being marketed/sold in the US exclusively? But then thereās Epidiolex and the patents granted to GW. Seems pretty messy to me.
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You know - the legislature is the one that enacted the FD&C, right? And they are the ones that excluded tobacco products. And they are the ones that excluded liquor products. And they are 100% the ones that came up with the food modernization act.
So acting like somehow, because the FDA āhas been doing something since the 40sā (which it hasnāt actually being doing GRAS since that didnāt even start UNTIL almost the 80āsā¦) without the legislature telling them how, is a little silly.
Legit everything we are talking about right now are changes to the DEA, FDA, and USDA that were made by the legislature passing the 2014 and 2018 farm bills. These are HUGE changes. And there is good reason to assume that because of just how completed fucked everything is (and if you donāt think its fuckedā¦ you havenāt been watching the warning letters, state regulations, poison control numbers, and lots of companies begin and end in the last 5 yearsā¦) that the legislature will make big changes.
I think the changes will be specific to cannabis derived products. And I see it going one of two ways - complete prohibition (because they side with the FDA saying people shouldnāt be able to use these things) or a completely new category making cannabis derived stuff GRAS (because that would allow a very large industry to continue existingā¦and legislators sometimes listen to lobbyists and tax dollars).
-shrug- I suppose they could do absolutely nothing. If that happens - then we stay with the status quo. And that means that hemp is still hemp - but that cannabis derived products are ILLEGAL under the FDA. The warning letters and enforcement actions will increase - and BAM, the industry will collapse.
I think everyone hopes that wonāt happen - so Iām leaning my energy and my lobbying time towards asking my senators and representatives to make the change to GRAS or something similar to allow things to continue without getting bogged down in preclinical, phase 1, phase 2, and phase 3 clinical trials.
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I am curious as to what changes the DEA & FDA have implemented since the Farm Bills?
In my experience they turn a blind-eye and have failed to provide any path forward from a regulatory standpoint. Without traditional channels of retail, the big players will not get involved simply from a liability standpoint. Its been three years since the hearings and nothing has happenedā¦
I have dealt with FDA inspectors in the past and I can tell you that 85% of the equipment and processes people are using will be red-flagged upon the first visit. That is just from a food-grade perspective let alone pharmaceutical standards.
We have all had our hopes up but the reality is until Cannabis as a whole is federally legalized in some form, these agencies upon which we rely on for standards will do nothing and in return the industry will continue to be in the shadowsā¦
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The DEA rewrote the sections on marijuana and marijuana derived products to completely remove those from hemp aka less than 0.3% d9thc on a dry weight basis. They also issued final rules about this as well. And Iām the courts and other guidance docs opened channels for activities in the hemp space. Including issuing around 40 new licenses for testing facilities around the country.
The FDA issued 2 new guidance documents. Plus a whole new subsection on cannabis derived substances not being legal for food drug or cosmetics or vet products. Theyvstartimg issuing warning letters and doing enforcement actions for those new rules. They also approved dozens of new foods containing seeds and seed oils.
The FDA also fought off 3 legal battles regarding CBD being GRAS. These cases had real merit and yet the FDA still prevailed. We are still awaiting final changes for this, which is what I think will hopefully be in the next farm bill.
The USDA did a lot as well. Plus the FTC. Plus NIDA. Plus DOJ. so much happened in the executive branch since the farm bill related to our industry, I try to keep up with it all, you know?
As far as I can tell about 50% are not in the shadows any longer. Maybe even more. Itās a huge tax base with huge impact on job creation and real estate pricing. Itās not in the shadows anymore, even if it is standing in the shade.
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None of those things you listed are big enough needle movers thoughā¦
The reality is, until the FDA list Cannabinoids as GRAS, the industry will continue to stand in the shadow. None of the big retail players are selling products, which is what caused the hemp collapse of 2019ā¦
If you search CBD on Walmartās store, all you will find is books about how beneficial CBD isā¦Until the big boys are able to sell products, nothing will change.
I agree, hopefully this new Farmbill addresses a lot of these issues, but I doubt itā¦
I dont know. How big does it have to be? Is 100 billion a year not big enough?
Is Amazon not a large enough retailer?
Is kroger not large enough? CVS? Walgreens?
Is pet smart not large enough?
Does it have to be Walmart an incredibly conservative organization to make it out of the shadows?
The most recent warning letter is going again a chain of CBD outlets that around more than a dozen statesā¦ does it need to be bigger than a multi state operatorās with billions in revenue?
I dont think it needs to be bigger. Just because there are still people boot strapping itā¦ dowsnt mean that there are not millions being spent on lobbyists. Doesnt mean there are not huge special interest groups writing their letters and showing up on capital hill en masse (Iām often standing with themā¦ so many more than 10 years ago!!)
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Are you researching the information youāre typing? The CBD market globally is around 5 billion, not 100ā¦ Look at the available products at the retailers you listed outside of Amazon, which is not a traditional retailer.
CVS, Kroger, Walgreens are ONLY selling topicals. They are only selling the products that do NOT require FDA-approvalā¦ Which means the liability risk of carrying other products outweighs the benefit.
Iām not sure about you but when somebody ask me about the benefits of CBD, topicals are the last product I would recommend for any sort of relief or effectiveness.
I am not sure what progress you think they have achieved that can be viewed as a promising outlook for industry growth? I guess we agree to disagree on this.
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Youāre welcome to your opinion. Iām sure many people here have a different one. Fwiw, topicals are the first thing I use for myself or any loved one. Full spectrum cbd/cbg for pain and root balm for swelling or infection. I trust them more than anything else I see available. I donāt like selling them, because I feel like telling people the truth about the product is a ādeceptive practiceā under the FDAās Orwellian rules.
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Just in case anyone is wondering - topicals are dermatological products - these are drugs or cosmetics. These are covered under the FDA and require FDA approval if they have active ingredients.
Indeed - one of the most recent warning letters include a TOPICAL product that is not legal to be made without approval from the FDA. Also I donāt know why the Kroger near you only has topicals - the ones in Michigan and Arizona have way more than that on their shelves, pet products, capsules, etc. Maybe its a state by state thing and where you live its just not available?
Also - Iām not sure why you are only looking at the $4 billion from industrial hemp (which doesnāt include CBDā¦) and is only for the US marketplace, and doesnāt so many of the other companies in our industry - especially those in states like Washington and Colorado where cross industry activities are occurring (aka CBD coming into THC realms etc). These are the published numbers from like 2019ā¦ which are from before the regulations from the Farm Bill were even in place, but Iām sure you are getting them from somewhere specific. Iām using the ones from the MJ Factbook - and the ones that were just used at the CANNRA conference - and the ones that were part of the Chamber of Commerce presentation in November. Perhaps all those numbers are incorrect - but I figure its gotta be more than that in the US, if its more than that just in Michigan. -shrug-
Seems weird to me that you would fully discount online retailersā¦ given that online retail sales are now almost 15% of the US retail economyā¦ almost reaching a staggering TRILLON dollars in Q3 of 2022. Like more money than is easily conceived by the average human 1000 billion dollars. Thatās 3 times what walmart (including their online retail) did last year. 
Iām including the ENTIRE industry in my 100 billion. Thatās traditional market, licensed market, hemp market. Our INDUSTRY. Not just a little industrial hemp slice of it. But all of the moving and shaking. Because at this point many (not allā¦) of the companies are engaged on both sides of the line. And we should also include all of the supporting industry (because lobbyist do, so we should too!) because there are entire product offerings now (even if they are failing because the government wonāt get out of the way) but really. Iām not including the 3rd line out though - so suppliers of the suppliers have not been considered in my economic activity index numbers. These numbers drive the
Acting like cannabis is only 4 billion dollarsā¦ I mean thereās more than 4 billion dollars in cannabis in Michigan alone. And maybe even more on the traditional marketplace. Some estimates put it around 10bil, and Michigan isnāt even the biggest state with the highest population.
I 100% mirror @Autumn_Ridge_Hemp I always recommend topicals for pain before I recommend anything else. Mostly because there is a seriously limited chance that a topical will make you fail a drug test and drug tests still matter for lots of people jobs. Followed on by the possibility that edibles will get some people high (cause more THC than expectedā¦even in CBD products). Followed on by smoking/vaping being not okay for MOST new consumers - because the side effects that normal canna users are comfortable with, donāt work for nontraditional cannabis people. Like at all. In the pharma/FDA world those side effects are adverse events, which might make you fail a clinical trial. -shrug-
But I digress.
The real deal here is - we expect that the legislature will make a move because cannabis is NOT IN THE SHADOWS anymore. Its been out in the open on the west coast for almost 20 years. And that wave has effectively moved across the whole country with only pockets of complete prohibition left remaining.
Perhaps you are not seeing the growth? Maybe you didnāt see entire livelihoods impacted by the Farm Bills? Maybe all you are seeing is the speculative āgreen rushā people who threw in their hats and havenāt been successful?
But Iām seeing something completely different. Iām seeing patients have access to meds across the country. Iām seeing entire new processing facilities being created for fiber products and building materials. Iām seeing HUGE new manufacturing facilities being built in historical rust state areas and on tribal lands.
I live in Michigan, so perhaps Iām luckyā¦ but I can walk into almost any store here still and buy CBD products. Including vet products to help my old timer doggo out with her skin and arthritis. I work with farmers back home in Missouri and in Kentucky who are growing the amazing cannabis cash crop. Taking their acreage from $3-5 an acre to $100-500 an acre, with minimal changes to their practices only a change in seed type.
Iām seeing seed processing facilities that had been dormant for the last 25 years (since NAFTA started mostlyā¦) that are open again. And whole new companies being started to supply crop seeds for fiber, foods, and cannabinoids.
Iām seeing an amazing influx of new graduates and soon to be graduating folks that are taking cannabis focused courses. These courses were not offered at all 5 years ago, before the farm bill. Many of these programs are funded by the USDA grants to offer R&D and educational dollars for these programs!
Iām also seeing an amazing resurgence of endocannabinoid system training courses for CEU for doctors and nurses across the country. I expect to see even more now that the MMR has been passed - because it untied all the universities hands when it comes to cannabis, no longer can they lose funding or accreditation because of cannabis focused courses.
And Iām seeing a SURGE in poison control calls and interacting directly with the national poison control center to make sure they have the best information available to help parents, caregivers, and adults figure out whatās happening to their bodies from consuming all these products.
Perhaps you donāt get to see all that stuff. Or maybe we see it through completely different lens. Iāve been diligently working on this stuff since 1997 - when I was just a sprout in SSDP. And the changes are marvelous. The regulations are staggering sometimes - but damn, to think how far we have come in my lifetime! And Iām only middle aged.
I have hope for the future of our industry and the help of this sacred plant. I believe that weāll have a fully legal pathway and cannabis will be just like growing tomatoes in my lifetime. And Iām watching this happen not just in the US and individual states, but around the world.
Soon it will be outliers that are banning cannabis - like there are outliers banning booze. SOON! <3
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I love your enthusiasm and optimistic outlook. The hemp industry was off to a great start and then stifled by federal agencies not doing their job to keep it growing. The massive growth of agriculture and processing that was set in motion with the USDAās FarmBill was not matched by the FDA/DEAās clarification of product formulation and approval which in return prevented the real sellers of products to sell. Iāve seen farmers and processors loose their ass all while the agencies stood still. Maybe my opinion is formed from experience rather than blind optimismā¦And to be clear, I walked away doing well for myself, just wish I could say the same for others in the industry.
I recommend using PanXchange for accurate data, although we all know that is hard to find anywhere.
Hemp is down another 50% of growing in 2022. Almost nobody is producing CBD crude at scale, which then disrupts the supply chain. Almost all of your larger brands are purchasing crude for cheaper than it can be made without massive scale. We are still seeing over supply being processed from 2018, 2019, and 2020ā¦
I truly believe we have zero idea where the industry is from a traditional supply chain standpoint.
To clarify, I never said the entire cannabis industry is 5 billion. We all know itās much biggerā¦Keeping cannabis and hemp as separate markets only makes sense given the current regulatory landscape.
Iām not sure where youāre getting information from but the people I speak with, cannabis/hemp as an entirety is in the worst place itās been in 6 yearsā¦
You stated that topicals require FDA approval? To my knowledge the FDA has not approved a single CBD product. Compounded drugs and creams do NOT need FDA approval prior to market release, itās been that way foreverā¦Can you clarify?
To finish, I have a love and passion for this industry as big as everybody. In my experience, the rush is over, and the only way to move forward is to be logical and realistic about where things are at and the mountains that need to move for them to change. Us that have been in the trenches for many years in this game know that. Wishing everybody the best 
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I did state that dermatological products with Active Pharmaceutical Ingredients (API) require FDA approval. This has always been the case. The FDA has only approved CBD in a single product (epidiolex, which is not a derms product). And the FDA has been clear that other products (food, drugs, cosmetics (including topicalsā¦)) cannot have cannabis derived products in them, as that would be illegal under the FDAās rules.
This includes compounded medicines - Iām not sure why that is thrown in here, as compounding meds are for individual, and would not be sold at stores. But its cool to bring up, the FDA doesnāt approve compounded stuff for individual patients that they can get from a pharmacy. But you cannot get pharmaceutical CBD yetā¦ so blarg. Governments!
Iāve been actively working in the industry on the hemp and canna side for 10 years now. The bang and bust that we are seeing is statistically not any different from normal businesses (only about 40% survive the first 2 years). Many of the farmers I have worked with are doing great. And when I say great I mean, being able to send their kids to school without debt, taking holiday for the first time in their lives, etc.
Many of the processors I have worked with (including myself) have seen companies do well and squander those proceeds and do horrible. Most of the bad instances were specific to really shitty business practices. I havenāt seen any legitimate businesses with solid business acumen just collapse, personally. I have heard horror stories, but I donāt know anyone personally that had a solid business plan that just got destroyed by the regulators moving too slowly.
I think we are in two very separate groups of people and just have the magic to cross here on the forum. I think there never was a realistic rush and that was always the problem from the beginning. I work with people who still think they are going to get $3000 a pound in Michigan for mids! And I work with hemp processors that are still slanging all over the place, even though there are warning letters and new regs coming up all the time, but are still making sick bank ($50,000 a month for one shop).
Of course - Iām sure some people think $50,000 a month isnāt great. Or that a 5% margin isnāt enough. Or that having a limited access to capital because they have zero assets and have no personal credit history is unfair and means they canāt move forward.
But Iām a farmer and a chemist. And for me I know that on the farm each year until hemp came around meant that my family was taking on debt to plant seeds and praying for a good season so the loan could be paid back.
And I know that working and managing small pharma companies - that most drug products have a seriously slim margin. Maybe some big boys are doing better, but most of the time I was making a penny or two a unit.
And almost all the cannabis/hemp companies I have worked with were making so much more than that. I remember thinking it was fucking insane to have a commodity that was selling for hundreds of dollars a pound and when CBD isolate was at like 15k a liter, I thought that was just bogus too. No other product in the world commands those prices - so it was a bubble that was always there.
-shrug- Perhaps I have always been a realist with this. I never thought I would get rich in this industry, or any industry really. Because people donāt get rich in the US without generational wealth or extreme luck. And I donāt have generational wealth.
But I do have enough to invest now and then in new hemp and canna companies. And I do. And Iām hopeful they will succeed. And I lobby all the time to get the laws changed in an incremental way so that we donāt have huge market disruptions that lead to violence in the streets and major layoffs.
Iām so glad to be here with the Future FAM where I am surrounded by folks that have that same passion. And Iām glad you shared with me - cause I may be living in an optimistic bubble (although most people think of me as a cynical pessimistā¦) and its nice to hear other voices and not just my own. <3
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I think thatās going to depend on what your definiton of ārichā isā¦ I know quite a few people from broke families that are what I would consider rich that got there from grinding their asses off and taking chances starting businesses. None of them got there as employees
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Yup. I know 100+ immigrant store owners personally who have made it from just the shirt on their back.
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Not really apples and apples. Immigrants qualify for a lot of grants. Grants not loans like the established citizenry.
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I was wrong about going back to the ā40s. FDA pushed their first GRAS list to the Federal Register in December 1958ā¦ well before the ā80s.
I donāt think it is silly to think the FDA will end up making the GRAS calls on cannabinoids and their usage in the US. GRAS falls under the purview of the FDA, and they have far far more experience with GRAS reviews than anyone else in DC.
Iād flip this question on its head and ask: Why in the world would we want anyone but the FDA GRAS Division to make the GRAS calls on cannabinoids and their usage in the US?