The ULTIMATE chiller calculator thread

I don’t believe there are any added benefits of using 304L versus 316. the thermal properties are almost identical. the difference between the two is the ratio of chromium and nickel and the addition of molybdenum.

Any stainless series needs to have a minimum of 12% chromium. 316 has a slightly lower chromium content than 304 and a little higher nickel content. 316 also has around 2% molybdenum to aid in the corrosion resistance in chlorides which makes it marine grade. In my prior experience (industrial food machinery design), the only real difference between the two is that 316 holds up against corrosion to a larger variety of mediums including the sanitation products. in most cases, 316 is more expensive.

In my new industry (this one haha), I have not seen any real benefits of the two. 304, especially the chinese stuff has a tend to be leaning towards more of a 200 series stainless. unless you can get mill certs to certify its composition but i mean my gf cant tell the difference between the louis vuitton handbag i got her vs the one at the store downtown… so take those mill certs with a grain of salt.

If you want a non magnetic, ultimately corrosion resistant stainless steel, go with 316. IF you’re happy with the 304 youre good to go there as well. no real difference in performance IMHO.

true 304 should not be magnetic unless it was formed or welded. if you have a piece of 304 and form it into a box, the breaks will become slightly magnetic. you’ll find some of the chinese parts are magnetic all around. with 316, it is far less noticeable. then again, this has nothing to do with performance between the grades of ss.

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the cooling capacity decreases as the chiller works harder to maintain lower temperature

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Well put, thanks for explaining my friend.

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There is a lot more to it. Carbon content and other crystalline thingies and metrology whathaveyou’s as well. but for what you are asking, that’s all we need to talk about hahaha

A jacketed material column alone is not enough because you also need your solvent to be cold. Without ajackeed material column how do you reach and maintain a constant extraction and material temp? Definitely use a jacket column. With hydrocarbons LCO2 or LN2 arethe easiest but a dry ice jacket works too. First chill your Collin then carefully add your frozen material to the pre chilled jacketed column (use appropriate protective gear, I’ve been burnt way too many times handling chilled columns). I let my filled columns sit for a bit to make sure scything is at the desired temp. Then using heat exchangers chill your solvent on its way into your system (50-100ft of SS coil should work) this way everything is a your desired temp throughout the extraction.

Literally bounced a -80C packed column off my forearm. Lucky it didn’t stick. Wear appropriate protective gear!

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Ouch!! I’ve had those same burns, not fun luckily I was able to get the columns off before they stuck to my skin. So so so very important to wear protective gear. Glasses, ear protection, gloves, and long sleeves!!! Also important when sorting trim. I ended up with poison ivy from a tainted bag. Some how it got in my armpits. Talk about uncomfortable :persevere:

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I feel like its even worse when you get your fingertips. I cant tell you how many times ive gotten lazy with acetone and dry ice and literally burned the skin off my fingertips.

im like “its ok i didnt get myself” Then wake up to full finger blisters from the dry ice. Oh i hate being either lazy or high all the time…LOL

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I just got in a 6160 polyscience that runs 12 amps at 220v and stated cooling capacity of 1000 watts at 0c. I. I ran it on my 5l rotovap and it did great holding -5c no problem. My question is, will it hold a cold enough temp for a 20l rotovap. I am Looking to pull max evap efficiency from a 20l with a coolant input to condenser coil temp of 10c and a 40c rotvap bath temp. Thoughts?

If you figure out how many watts your water bath churns out at max temp you can do the math to figure out what it’s putting out at the temp you use. If it’s close to or more than the 1000w then your chiller isn’t a good choice. Add in all the loss from having to chill the mass of all the glass, hosing etc and you quickly outstrip the cooling capacity of your chiller. Personally I like to power my 20Ls with 1kw @ -10 to -20c of cooling. But I run my baths low with high vac which seems to be much harder on the chiller.

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Hey all,
A chiller I saw said that at -40, the cooling capacity was 175 watts. From what I gather this is how much more heat it can process at -40 if added to the system. Do they calculate for the ambient air adding heat to the reservoir?

In other words, it will hold the reservoir volume to -40 at room temp, but it can’t handle more than 175w of external heat. Once the fluid gets recirculated out of the chiller and through a jacket then I would have to start calculating for heat introduced by contact with room temp air? The op said about 20-30% loss to lines and jacket, so if I needed 1,000w from the specific heat calculations the chiller would need to have at least 200-300w of cooling capacity at -40?

I don’t fully understand this science, but trying to learn, so let me know if I’m thinking about this right.

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Just stumbled across this man. Without getting into the hardcore math that sounds about right . Thatd be the rough equivalent btus of 68 lbs dry ice. And my machine usually takes around 80-100 pound dry ice per 100 lbs. And assuming your running 20lbs per every 10usg batch thatd be in the ballpark. Dont know if that helps✌

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@precisionnick the value of the specific heat of butane on the chart you referenced is shown at 25°C / 77°F should this be taken into account?

I’ve seen a lot of people asking questions about chiller capacity at different temperatures and I figured I would provide a pretty effective way to calculate it. This is how we size for multistage refrigeration systems, although usually I am working the opposite direction.

First, you need to establish an evaporator temperature (the temperature of the cold part of the chiller). This is basically the design temperature you want your cooled fluid (let’s say -69 C for an example), less your heat exchanger approach temperature (more on this later), and plus your suction superheat. Suction superheat is how much hotter than the “boiling point” the refrigerant is when it gets pulled back into the compressor at a given evaporator pressure. 3-5C is a pretty safe bet.
Approach temperature is probably the hardest thing to calculate accurately in refrigeration, and when dealing with someone else’s work (e.g. you bought a julabo off eBay) can be tricky. However, you can get decently close by measuring the temperature of the refrigerant entering the evaporator (ie the coil before it goes into a bath on a recirculating chiller) and the temperature on its way out (ie the temperature entering the compressor) under load. The way to think of this is “if I want the glycol to be -69C, how much colder does the refrigerant need to be to exchange that heat”. This is obviously a grossly incorrect way to actually calculate this because there are all sorts of mass transfers and such needed for the actual calculation. Let’s arbitrarily assign a value of 10C here, which is pretty lousy so it should give you a number lower than the actual chiller capacity. In our theoretical instance, this gives us an evap temp of -69 - 10 + 5 = -74C.

Next, we need to evaluate the evaporator pressure that we are operating at: to do this we will be looking up the “saturation pressure” at the refrigerant temperature (having already accounted for superheat, this is going to be your target temperature less your approach temp = -79C). There are a million saturation charts for each refrigerant, so pick any of them and look for the line that describes saturation at this temperature; it should also give a value for vapor density and enthalpy of vaporization at this pressure/temperature. This indicates how many watts per kg of refrigerant are removed from the system to boil the refrigerant and how much refrigerant is going to be moved by your compressor. Let’s choose r404a as our example here, and looking up a saturation chart gives us a density of .873 kg/m3 and a latent heat of 221 kj/kg at our -79C.

To complete this though, I’m sure you’ve realized you need an actual volumetric flow for the refrigerant. This is called the “swept volume”. Fantastically, this is easily found from most Copeland compressors using their OPI tool. For other compressors, I usually just use a cross reference to find an equivalent Copeland compressor and it comes out pretty close.

Now, knowing our swept volume, let’s say 42.6 m3/hr for a Copeland ZF41K5E and our density .873 kg/m3, and our latent heat, 221 kj/kg, we can calculate that the system uses 8220 Kj per hour to boil that refrigerant. Because one watt = one joule/second, and there are 3600 seconds per hour, we get 8220000/3600=2280W. This doesn’t take into account any sensible heat (ie subcooling), but in reality this is hardly ever a factor that comes close to the lack of precision of this method of calculation. You’ll also probably notice that for a single stage compressor system, the density is incredibly low at these low temperatures and accordingly so is the power output.

You may also think “wow, I didn’t realize my chiller could get that cold”. You are probably correct, what you are seeing is that although the chiller would have capacity to cool at that temperature, the power loss to environment (adiabatic loss) is greater than the output at some higher temperature. This is where the chiller will “stall” and usually where the manufacturer lists it’s low end temperature. Keep in mind that adiabatic loss increases massively with the delta t to the environment.

Now, you can also backtrack much of this information by evaluating performance at some higher temperature (ie how quickly can I cool 10kg of water 10C) and use the same formula to get any unknowns (approach and swept volume are usually the ones in question since you can look up the others).

The rule of thumb if you are building a refrigeration system is that the compression ratio (condenser pressure:evap pressure) should not be greater than 10:1. Any greater than this and you will end up roasting the compressor (caveat: liquid injected/vapor injected compressors). I haven’t taken the time to explain how to calculate condenser pressure, but I’m sure you can figure it out if you’re trying to build your own chiller. When you realize that you have a compressor with sufficient swept volume, but your evap pressure is 1/50 of your condenser pressure, you will need to either put compressors in series, dumping heat between them, or go to a cascade system where the condenser operates at a much lower temperature because it is connected to the evaporator of another refrigerant loop. The latter is more complicated but much more efficient as it allows use of refrigerants or cryogens that are much denser at lower temperatures than the conventional ones. If you are just trying to establish the capacity of your existing system (or one you are shopping for), calculating the capacity at the evaporator of the lowest stage should be sufficient because the manufacturer should have done their work and sized the upper stages appropriately.

I know this is very very crude and all the chiller pros are probably gonna hop on here and pick my lazy math apart, but if your goal is to figure out if X chiller will be able to cool some volume of something at the right temperature, it will probably get you at least within a model size. I hope this is helpful for y’all.

Long ass post but I was stuck at the airport and ran out of new posts to read.

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