Our chemist said the same thing and that’s exactly what they are doing. He has straight up asked multiple labs if they are verifying the results via mass spec and they tell him no… Except for one lab, which is where we send most of our stuff…
And they are the same ones who failed us for pbo on multiple disty tests. our chemist asked em to verify on mass spec, they did and realized it wasn’t pbo. They were transparent with us and told us they fucked up on the failed pbo tests, so I give them props for that. But it’s crazy to me they aren’t required to verify results. Especially when they are having hundreds of thousands of dollars of product being destroyed across the state because of these labs mistakes.
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This sounds like an absolute nightmare.
If it were me, I would quantify how much these false positive test results are affecting your potential revenue streams. Then make a case to spend some CAPEX and get in-house analytics. It’s a long road, but at least you’ll have people you trust running your analyses.
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It really is… Yeah, in-house analytics would be a huge help. Unfortunately, the state certified testing labs get the last word. Whatever results they report are what decides whether we pass or fail. Even if our in-house analytics say it’s clean.
Hell, we have had the labs do an R&D test for us on several batches (R&D tests “don’t count” toward compliance. so you can fail those and still have a chance to remediate to get to a passing compliance test, which frees the product up for sale), and the R&D comes back clean, then we send the same exact batch to the same lab for compliance testing and it fails lol. Even though the initial R&D was ND. Never seen anything like it.
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This exact problem is why it’s so beneficial to have in house analytics. Of course with the cost of the necessary equipment it’s much easier said than done. I imagine you guys will travel a similar road to the one we took, lots of conversations with labs, finding ones that will be transparent, and then continuing to hold them accountable. Hopefully competition will push a couple labs to rise to the top. I remember walking into Cannalabs in Denver in like 2016 and they had just fired the whole lab, everyone left, didn’t even lock the doors lol. I just walked in like, “Wtf is going on around here” poor receptionist was on her way out just said, “They fired us all”. Turned out they were taking money for passing tests and boosting potency numbers.
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True but I don’t believe precedent has been set yet suing a lab. Chemistry is chemistry and if your mass spec can prove they were wrong and that their judgment cost you revenue, I’d imagine you win that case. THough, total speculation
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sounds like you have someone who could run your in-house analytics.
question is, can they fire up a 20 yr old GCMS: I bought a thing!: Adventures with a 20-year-old GCMS
not if you’ve got GCMS and (a decent lawyer and) they’ve got HPLC…
knowing the answer before taking the “you must pass this” state mandated test is never a bad idea…
I was sooo spoiled by my first cannabis analytical lab. I’d known and worked with the chemist for 10 years, and we worked together to get him up and running. Seeing that go down in flames 'cause of his partners politics really sucked.
still haven’t found anyone close.
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Having an internal lab ran by a competent chemist goes a LONG way in an argument with a third party lab.
We have won those arguments on more than one occasion because we knew the science better than they did.
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LMK if you’d be interested in giving my analytical lab a shot? I am an employee, but I am one of our more experienced instrument/lab people
Always looking to earn the trust and confidence of potential customers.
State licensed operations in WA and CA
In OR
Well we can’t help with OR compliance CoAs, but if you’re interested in vetting a lab for your R&D purposes, shoot me a pm
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Meanwhile, across the river in Illinois, a mere cannabinoid test was $350 last I checked, and that has probably gone up. The fees are state mandated, which violates every federal anti trust law but it doesnt matter. The lab licenses only go to a small handful of very highly connected individuals and it is a license to print money.
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It takes a metric fuck ton of money to start up a lab. Without a lab you can’t have an industry. All I’m saying is try pricing an HPLC/MS/MS system, a couple of UPLC systems… and that doesn’t even touch the microbial side- before complaining about high testing prices.
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What’s a cannabinoid test cost on the west coast? 35 bucks? There’s a reason the government isnt allowed to fix prices. It inevitably leads to corruption. But those laws are federal, so they’re not enforced against the states in this instance. If cannabis were to become federally legal, price fixing lab tests would stop right away.
The place we go, in CO, potency/terps are $35. Pesticides and residuals are closer to $50 i believe, microbials are closer to $90 and homogeneity is $125 or so. I’m assuming costs go down after the market is more established and competition stops the gouging.
This too
Those prices are a result of a race to the bottom. $35 to run potency (for state mandatory compliance testing) is too fucking low. You cannot expect knowledgeable people running your analysis for those prices, certainly can’t expect mass spec at those prices. Also IME higher prices equal less potency juicing as the main motive for the lab is extra money.
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I agree. How do these labs pay their employees? Do they have adequate quality controls? Are the results accurate?
You get what you pay for and the testing industry is certainly no exception.
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Oh yeah, prices are crazy. A full panel compliance test with terpenes here is $610. That would been $150 or less back in CO.
I understand it’s a new market, which comes with pros and cons, but man this is one frustrating con.
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Yeah he could definitely run in-house analytics for us. And I know that would be beneficial for us. this all makes sense… It sounds like we are in for a long struggle before this gets better. Whether it be in-house analytics, lobbying for stricter rules and enforcement, or both.
It’s just crazy when a lab is telling us our bulk distillate is ND on all pesticides, then fails our carts for pbo/paclo from the same exact batch of disty that a they told us was clean… Our attorney is in contact with the state about it constantly, so the wheels are turning… Just gonna take time I suppose. Based on the responses here, it seems like this isn’t a very uncommon thing
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Are you adding terps to your disty for the carts? Are the terps clean for pesticides?
We are. We have tested the terps and disty separately with the same lab, prior to adding them to the disty, and they both back ND. Then, we mix the two, put it in cartridges and they say there’s pbo or paclo. This doesn’t happen every time, but definitely more than once or twice.
Fortunately, one lab seems to be trying to work with us and has started verifying strange results like these via mass spec, and this has definitely helped.
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