I think co2 will be most effective when there are designer strains available. When strains are gmo’d in 3 areas or more that can be separated between rare cannabinoids and terpenes within the same the run that that’s what I imagine these will be most effective for. And I would think since the largest co2 companies work with gw then they are already designing hemp genetics at the highest level to maximize their really expensive equipment. I think of co2 as more of the future and when built by these large companies like thar they provide the safest working environment health wise less any explosions. If I had fuck you money I would buy one and by the time you can cash in on the gmo crops your cost of the machine will be covered. Then you’ll double your fuck you money. Also as a long term business plan your employees lungs have to be better off. As does your risk for future lawsuit.
Me either but I’m pretty certain you’re correct from what I remember
To all the awesome 4200 minds,
Thank you so much for all of your input. I have a much better understanding of what exactly CO2 extraction means and entails. Peace and Respect to all of you.
Huh? That site you linked shows 1 gal corn ethanol at $96.37 and grape ethanol at $146.87. A 5 gal non-organic 190 proof on that same site is $150
Food grade non-organic in single gallons is <$70 and much of that is use tax
Buying non organic CDA in totes will get you inside of $7/gal delivered. Even less in rail cars or isotainers.
Hydrocarbons are the first compounds to boil off dinosaur juice. Organic compounds known as alkanes.
so you read the paper I cited?
Concentrations and isotopic compositions of ethane and propane in cold, deeply buried sediments from the southeastern Pacific are best explained by microbial production of these gases in situ . Reduction of acetate to ethane provides one feasible mechanism. Propane is enriched in 13C relative to ethane. The amount is consistent with derivation of the third C from inorganic carbon dissolved in sedimentary pore waters. At typical sedimentary conditions, the reactions yield free energy sufficient for growth. Relationships with competing processes are governed mainly by the abundance of H2. Production of C2 and C3 hydrocarbons in this way provides a sink for acetate and hydrogen but upsets the general belief that hydrocarbons larger than methane derive only from thermal degradation of fossil organic material.
evidence that propane (at least from this spot) is synthesized by critters; which might satisfy those that consider Bacillus Thuringiensis and Neem oil “organic”
“Organic” and “made with Organic” are just marketing ploys that should stay at Whole Foods.
“100% Organic” at least carries some substance but still is trash for other reasons, but that is more just my opinion. First two mean nothing and you should never pay more for anything using those words.
Almost all this ethanol is completely reusable. I’m not sure - are you angry that my “slightly” is 25% more? Or are you angry that you cannot get certified ORGANIC ethanol for the same price as non-organic and denatured ethanol?
The fact here is that if you wanted to go organic - your cost would be just 25% more expensive. Which is totally doable - in order to get your certified organic tag.
YOU don’t have to be organic. But if you want to be organic you have to follow the rules that are made by the organic certification bodies.
It should be USDA Certified Organic - because then if you care about things being organic at all, you know that the organization is following the rules proscribed by the agency AND that there is traceability all the way back to the beginning of each raw material.
They are not just “words”. Their value is determined by the individual or the corporation purchasing those products. Hell - most of the stuff at Whole Foods isn’t even organic, you know?
CO2 extraction is considered an organic method of separation. And material made using this method, as long as other organic products are used, is considered organic.
I believe hydrocarbons are GRAS (generally regarded as safe)? So safe, but not necessarily organic. They still make the best extracts, currently.
Consumers like seeing “Organic” on their labels. It means they care about the quality of what they consume and the methods used to create them. CO2 extracted is way more than a marketing ploy. If it didn’t matter ethanol producers would label their products with the type of ethanol (organic, food grade, denatured) they use and let the consumer decide.
does the source of the CO2 matter?
you know, captured from a brewery vs from the flare off of dinosaur juice?
it should…if we play that game for (say) ethanol
…and if I’ve got data that proves my propane was made by bacteria rather and mom squishing dinosaurs, wtf can’t we call THAT organic too…
Kinda funny to me that the hydrocarbons are not organic but the CO2 is.
“It is produced by burning natural gas to separate the carbon and hydrogen atoms. Hydrogen is then combined with nitrogen to create ammonia. The carbon atoms can then combine with oxygen to create CO2 as a byproduct. This CO2 can then be sold to the industries that need it.”
yeah, sorry. not stupid hippies, but illogical as all fuck…
I’m not sure why you’re replying to me. Just a few days ago you agreed that the terms I mentioned are silly.
I never said everything at Whole Foods is organic. They are notorious for marking things up exponentially just because they are denoted as “organic” and “made with organic.” Whole Foods is pretty much the poster child of the organic food and greenwashing fad so they were just an example.
Japan (and most countries that I’ve personally done business with) use a similar loose (BS) definition for organic. In Japan it pretty much just means “low or no chemicals” which is not much different than the low bar set for “organic” here. Organic doesn’t really mean anything in regards to safety/health and it’s just a way to legally suggest something is healthier. So yes, I’d say they’re just words with a certification behind it to make it sound legitimate, especially for hemp-based products.
My point still stands… don’t pay more for something because it’s marked as “organic” or “made with organic.” It’s not going to make the slightest difference on most foods and consumer items on anything other than the price tag. At the end of the day, “organic” is just a marketing term.
I did not say anything about USDA certified organic because this thread is about someone in Japan so not really relevant. Ive only ever worked with one USDA certified organic hemp cultivator so that’s not my place to comment as it’s not an area I’m personally experienced with. I just don’t think “organic” or “made with organic” are as indicative of a clean product as they are often believed to be. If anything, those two terms take away from the more heavily scrutinized certifications.
I’m not angry but I do want to see correct information published on here, and call out incorrect info. Not sure how you got this 25% figure from, feel free to double check my math here
5 gal corn ethanol (organic) from https://organicalcohol.com/ $304.50
5 gal corn ethanol (non organic) from https://organicalcohol.com/ $150.00
$304.50 divided by $150 is 203%
I’m not a certified organic facility and have no intentions to become one, I agree with @cyclopath that a lot of the organic rules don’t make sense, doubly so if you’re not using crude directly to formulate products, shouldn’t be any residual ethanol left over after crude is taken to distillate.
I don’t know either. I think perhaps I just hit reply and it directed it at you as the last poster?
I totally agree with your statement about 100% organic carrying weight, and I’m pointing to how some certifying bodies get us there.
I was sharing the information about USDA - specifically because Japan has a reciprocal relationship with the US standards in the case of organic stuff. From CCOF (international body for Organic labeling and things…) there is a link that discusses how US/JP relations occur for these products. They have similar requirements for this JAS stamp. Which is very similar to our USDA Organic stamp in the states.
@greenbuggy I’m pretty sure the whole point of the conversation we are having here is to provide specific information to @CBDNihon about how his competitors might be mislabeling something as organic - while also providing resources about this.
Here’s an example of an approximately 25% mark-up between chemically equivalent products where one is USDA Organic and the other is not. Its actually just a 17% mark-up. That seems really reasonable to me. And if you can’t get the best price from organicalcohol.com - go somewhere else I suppose?
Its 100% worth noting that this is a perfect example where the consumer has driven a manufacturer to make multiple kinds of “organic” products available. They have a product that comes from non-organic grain, but made using their organic process. They also have multiple types and tiers or organic material. The sugar based organic material is significantly cheaper than the corn based - and their 190 proof, is even more so.
This all goes back to the original question - why are people using this marketing? Is there really value? What kind of value is it? And is it even possible to manufacture in this way?
People are marketing this way because Organic sells to a specific demographic. Its also a consistent bump in the price you can charge for your commodity, even though your pricing may be close to equivalent.
Is there really value? Perhaps not to all the Future Fam - however, Organic is a around 5% of the market in Japan - over $40 billion dollars. And its trending higher because consumers appear to care about this, even if they shouldn’t. In the US this is even higher at almost 6% of the market.
What kind of value might that be? If you have a 2% of the Organic market share in Japan that’s 800 million. We’re still talking millions - even if its 0.2% or 0.02%.
It is possible to manufacture this way. Depending on where you start in the process and how vertically integrated you are those costs will change. It may be possible to get certified organic hemp. It is possible to get certified organic ethanol. So it is physically possible to do this. You cannot do it with Butane, because the US and Japan both agree butane isn’t organic (even though there is good science to show that really, why shouldn’t it be. Thanks @cyclopath for the awesome read on that.
I wonder if people will keep looking at this niche market. I think they will because its billions. I even have a customer that wants me to do it this way. I told him that there is no way to get certified USDA organic THC that I am aware of. There are other certifying bodies out there… maybe he will accept those.
Or maybe he will agree with us that its really all very silly. You know?
There is always this argument…
If you could manage all the steps with certified organic ethanol…
Of course getting the USDA to admit that might take some work.