I’ve been doing cryo bucket tech for about 4 years and using LN2 as a cold boil 3x per extraction. Makes better crude. All inside vertical cryo -80.
-now that hemp processing is here and looking at 4000lbs per day +
—and before warm etoh membrane filtering…
Im Also drawing up ideas to chill etoh, freeze biomass, condense etoh from ffe vaporization.
This is what looks like a rational design with CUPS and possibly cryo tunnels for biomass.
Pumps, flow and filtration also not worked out.
I actually really like the bottom up spray vessel design maybe circulate the off gass to coil cool the ffe vapor etoh. Shit man this is definitely some engineering.
Does anyone have a clue if energy efficiencies would be better with LN2 cryo cooling vs the Huber et al heat exchangers that the big manufactures are providing with their CUPS and FFE designs?
Depends on what you’re actually asking re: efficiency.
Do you mean “more net joules wasted is lower efficiency?”
If so, LN2 is likely to be more efficient.
Do you mean “which is more operationally/cost efficient?”
If so, that’s going to be a function of your cost of LN2 and the energy required to run the chillers, along with the capital requirements to set up each system, an analysis of your labour costs, and a few other minor things. In short, only you can figure that out, but it shouldn’t actually be that hard.
Correct.
Elon musk made the space program look like a joke. Sometimes “one man” can do things much faster and be more efficient than others without any data or help from others as well.
It was great to get an email from someone else that is working on the same project build and scaling past 4000 lbs also. So the post landed in the “correct” audience with the “correct” syntax used.
I really enjoy and appreciate collaboration, I don’t need or want to be Jeff Bezos or any other “monger”
If others are interested I will add to the post as progress continues.
And even add some math equations.
I’m getting tired of hearing “ya bro, just hook up a Huber and get a Welch”. “Wanna buy some SOPs?!”
My personal favorite: “If that worked everyone would already be doing it, you should just do what everyone else is already doing.”
Because buying equipment someone slapped a pot leaf on and is charging 4x what the same thing costs in any other industry totally makes sense.
I like the LN2 chilling idea. I’m not a huge fan of sacrificial processes like that as a general rule, but they do certainly have their place, and this seems like a not bad one.
That company “Messer” of the picture I posted as least has an apparent 2:1 coefficient…the liquid phases is ran through two coils, does a second pass through the thermo controller into second cooling coil. there’s two gas sections of cooling and then I guess you collect the gas and sell to dentists and rave party contestants on “who wants to loose brain cells??”
Not sure what the market for inert gas is but maybe it would actually turn a profit?
Even at 0°C I would think you could run some kind of AC boost in The building… I think PG and water mixture with nitrogen lines for some jacket cooling would also be possible. What an elaborate system…Willy wonka level
We currently only use LN2 for chilling our ethanol as we extract 1500 lbs a day. We have our chilling systems being powered up in the next week or so and have just used 230L dewars rolled in and pumped through our tank jackets to get the job done.
We use about 750-1200 L of LN2 per 1000 pounds of biomass, starting with 25C ethanol and taking it down to -40. It takes us about 1.5-2 hours to chill 300 gallons of ethanol with about 500 liters of LN2.
Do you agitate the ethanol during the cooling process? Either by pumping or stirring?
Have you considered using an external heat exchanger, instead of cooling the jackets of a large tank?
Also, if anyone in California is interested in having a sort of price-match on their cryogenic liquid supply, feel free to send me a copy of your current invoice (volume and pricing). I have a guy who would love to supply with competitive pricing.
We recirculate with a diaphragm pump. The jackets work fine for our application because we don’t have the ability to pump enough liquid nitrogen to actually fill more than the bottom third of the jacket before it evaporates. We have even directly chilled the ethanol and did not see much difference. I’d be very interested in getting the contact information for the liquid nitrogen supplier in SoCal.
Perhaps you could also fill the bottom 1/3 of the jacket with liquid coolant in order to increase the surface area, as liquid nitrogen bubbles through it. Haven’t tried it myself, but sounds worth trying…
So you’re using ~1500 liters/day of nitrogen? Are you open to discussing your current supply pricepoint? I’ll put you in immediate contact with him, you won’t be working through my account or any weird shit lol. Just a referral service.
Maximum single fill is (13) 230 liter dewars…roughly 3,000 gallons. I also confirmed he can cover any part of metropolitan CA.
I’m considering using liquid nitrogen to cool my jacketed reactor. I’m doing ethanol extractions at a small scale and not running it every day. How long can you store the liquid for? I would imagine the tank vents off a decent amount everyday. Also, do you buy the dewar tanks or are the leased?
I’ve been told that at room temperature, a 160-230L dewar can actually last about 3-4 weeks no problem. I haven’t stored one myself. When it’s filled before transport, it only gets filled 80% as per DOT standards. These factors - as well as the tank’s head pressure - will play a role in how long it lasts. I would insulate it, even though it’s vacuum jacketed.
You can buy the cylinders but for some reason suppliers seem to like to rent them out at very affordable rates. $1-3/day from everything I’ve been quoted. I’ll ask my aforementioned supplier but I remember him saying something like that too.
If you’re in LA, I’m pretty sure I have someone who can fill your purchased dewars, but they don’t have the dewars themselves…just LN2 on-site.
While a mechanical chiller is an option (Thermonics sells both) for some, the LN2 chiller has a lot of advantages:
initial price is a LOT cheaper (~35 to 45k, vs 80 to 150k)
no super high voltage needed (230V, 30A, vs 480V, 80A)
Massive Delta T for faster pull down times, increase product throughput
much smaller footprint than mechanical beasts
The Drawbacks?
LN2 Consumption and Exhausting - you’ve gotta use a lot of LN2 and properly exhaust it.
We have customers that estimate the LN2 Consumption costs are 50 cents per liter at the high end, but that’s easy for them to justify because it’s only a cost when they know profitable product is being produced.
Contact our our applications group - they’re answering tons of calls daily on this can help you with your calculations: applications@thermonics.com
Send me your email address and I will CC you in a direct email. I don’t have his company’s pricing breakdown right off the bat. I’m sure there is some volume and location dependency.
Have you checked out the Cryometrix L-80? Chills 120 gallons of EtOH with 230L of LN2. I’m considering this over the traditional chiller setups, but it totally depends on ability to get cheap LN2…
I tried the direct chilling too. It was not what I expected in a bad way. For this to work I really think you have to have a great deal on LN2. That’s cool you are doing a way bigger scale than I tried. Must be awesome to see.
If any of you have questions about the Cryometrix L-80 Ethanol Chiller, please email me at info@cryometrix.com. We can chill 120 Gallons down to -40C in 20 minutes now, we also have larger capacity chillers as well. And if you need smaller, we can do 30 Gallons to -40C in about 9 minutes. More info is available here: https://cryometrix.com/product-L80
Bigger temp differentials speed up heat transfer so if it is possible to increase the mass flow rate of the ln2 it should cool faster, but may be less efficient(use more ln2 or lco2). longer coils could help with with efficiency and heat transfer rate
Brings the. Numbers down
exactly! Cannot stress that enough.