I bought a Heilscher and am super excited by how easy it is to use with StuphCorps Emulsifier. The problem is the nano emulsion bitter taste is really giving me a hard time to get rid of. Anyone have any pointers on how to handle this? Thanks all!
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Have you tried bitter blockers yet?
They have some good stuff and advice on how to use them when working with bitter emulsifiers.
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I created my own emulsifier than sonicates the material to the same clarity in 2/3rds the time as sonomechanics. It is the same base oil but the other 2 ingredients in the emulsifier were changed… looking to sell in bulk or to sell out the recipe. Dm if of any interest. Its around 175 nm with just the emulsifier water and distillate after 25-45 min sonication(depending on dosage have gotten up to 40mgs per mL have not tried above so) but when we add our shelf life stability ingredients and a few essential oils and such it goes up to 400 nanometers.
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I don’t use high energy emulsification anymore. Stir plate is all I use currently.
For the thread:
I went with 2000W QSonica with flow-through and batch mode setup. I’m very satisfied with the purchase, however, there are lots of improvements I want Qsonica to include. Mostly in their controller for improved automation and temperature control that I manually do now, but otherwise it’s a great system. Stable, tight temperature control was the biggest hurdle when processing large scale volumes.
I didn’t get the Qsoncia chiller because it was too small to control temp when processing large volumes (liters and gallons) at 100% amplitude (100 microns) with long on time and short off time (I use 55 seconds on:5 off). My temperature control solution is very unique and ad hoc, with lots of valves and heat exchangers, but allows for very tight control down to a single degree Celsius with zero temperature drift.
Qsonica makes all the small horns for Industrial Sonomechanics (ISM), while ISM has their large flow-though barbell horn custom made.
I use up to 2 L open top jacketed 316 stainless steel reaction vessels in batch mode, connected to my chiller. For flow-through mode I have a 20 gallon stainless steel conical jacketed process liquid tank, and the standard 250 mL closed top jacketed reaction vessel from Qsoncia (with chiller and process liquid tank sanitary connections).
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I am looking at the up400t maybe with flow cell. Think it will be a great start to getting better emulsions over shear, any tips or recommendations before spend the 9k?
Redacted.
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Low energy methods are great for specific uses. I think people here would be interested in, and befit from a thread on low energy methods.
However, I think the downsides to low energy spontaneous nanoemulsions are significant. Such as the high surfactant-to-oil ratios often above 15-20, leading to limited oil phase concentrations, increased COGS, and they often require synthetic surfactants. Plus, the effects temperature, pH, and salinity have on the emulsion process and long-term stability are considerably greater than well designed high energy nanoemulsions.
Scaling spontaneous nanoemulsions is not easy, and they have lower kinetic stability than high energy methods. Plus, I haven’t found what I would call a flavorless and non-bitter natural surfactant system for spontaneous nanoemulsions (not to say they don’t exist).
High energy ultrasonic isn’t ideal because it beats the hell out of the AIs. Without a strong and appropriately chosen antioxidant system, AIs can see considerable oxidation and degradation, even if the process fluid is kept at 25’C due to the effect cavitation has on the AIs.
Microfluidization is ideal when it comes to O/W emulsions in my opinion.
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Congrats! And while I don’t have that brand, I have a few tips:
- Don’t start out with the flow cell if you’re not experienced and especially if you don’t have your surfactant system dialed in.
- Instead of buying the flow cell setup, buy more horns and larger hones to process larger batch volumes. I have a horn for 50-400 mL, a horn for 1-5L, and a horn for 5-20L (plus my flow cell horn).
- Start with <1L to 2L jacketed beakers and a small chiller, or read up on chemistry of dry ice, ethanol, and ethylene glycol to maintain stable sub-zero centigrade temps – do not get the ethyl glycol into your emulsion or you’ll have throw it away because it’s poison.
- If your surfactant system doesn’t include natural preservative add some.
- If your surfactant system doesn’t include antioxidants proven to work well in ultrasonic to prevent oxidation from cavitation, add some.
- Ultrasonic emlusions and nanoemulsion will suffer ostwald ripening and other causes of breaking without an appropriately formulated surfactnat system.
- Making a 5% oil load true nanoemulsion (<50 nanometers and clear as glass) with an ultrasonic, at scale, is no simple task. Making the same at 10% is basically unheard of, except in a few cases, including with my surfactant system. Few who try succeed as shown in the many posts and threads about the topics on this site with very few success stories at scale. Don’t give up, it’s possible.
- If you purchase your surfactant system your COGS is probably 20-50+ times higher than it has to be…leading to greatly reduced profit margins.
- More but I’m tired.
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Redacted… you know what to do lol.
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Well said, and agreed. Interesting reading as well!
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That was who I was recommended to try and they are sending me three samples of their surfactant. $1 per gram on powders and 0.25 per gram on liquid surfactant
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You’ll be doing yourself, and your customers, a huge favor by only using natural, clean label ingredients that are GRAS.
Also, buying your surfactants isn’t going to work long-term. They’re very expensive compared to making your own, and you should learn the chemistry so you understand how and why.
Qsonica actually has the best equipment for the dollar (by far). The Q2000 is a great deal, we have 3 of them… (buy it without the chiller and save big $$ by supplying your own or using city water for cooling) Cannasol Technologies has Natural GRAS surfactant for $675/kg
BTW, Industrial Sonomechanics does not actually build all of their system… Qsonica and Dukane manufacture their power supplies…
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Oh cool! Another company selling modified coconut oil surfactant at stupid high cost, which requires a 5-6:1 SOR, has max oil load of 5% (w/w), and can’t be kept in a cold fridge or the coconut oil will solidify. Really great product you have there! LOL
By the way, Axxiom is selling their Goo, which I’m pretty sure is the same thing you’re hawking, and Industrial Sonomehica’s hawks, for $600/kg. Just in case anyone wants to spend less, 
Sorry, spammer, you’re reported.
And about your product:
I’m assuming your one part emulsifier uses modified coconut oil as the surfactant…and that you didn’t manufacture it. Because there are now three of you guys (Axxiom, Industrial Mechanics, and you) selling the same product, and I doubt any of your are making it in-house, even though it’s not hard if using Novozymes and Scholar. I bet there is a wholesale supplier out there with or a bioreactor and yeast.
A big issue with your product, if it’s modified coconut oil, like with Goo and ISM’s product, is it’s not stable at low temps. So if you put your emulsion into cold fridge the emulsifier will solidify, ruining the product. I know this because I have tested them and I have seen it happen.
Also, working with modified coconut oil emulsifier is a PITA. It takes forever to heat up so it’s fluid enough to add the dispersed oil phase, seriously affecting work flow.
And IMO, the biggest drawback to using modified coconut oil as the emulsifier is the SOR (surfactant to oil ratio). It’s so high at 5 or 6:1 for distillate that you can only make a 5% w/w dispersed phase (oil load) O/W emulsion.
I make 10% a.i. w/w O.W nanoemulsions with a plant based, natural, GRAS, and clean label surfactnat system I developed, using a Qsonica 2000, in about 45 minutes of processing time for large volumes. My surfactant system is stable even in the freezer, at low and high pH, is odorless, flavorless, and non-bitter. My nanoemulsiosn droplets are <50 nm. And stable for 6+ months without any changes to the emulsion. All at the cost of pennies compared to your fee.
So, what were you saying about your magical product again?
Actually…Industrial Sonomehanics makes their own large horns. The only thing Qsoncia sells Industrial Sonomchanics is their smaller horn.
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Yup, I called it without even having to look at your site, LOL. You’re totally selling modified coconut oil emulsifier.
If anyone wants to know the ingredients to these products, just ask. They are very basic, water, modified coconut oil, potassium sorbate, sodium benzoate, yada, yada, yada.
Also, I forgot to mention a huge flaw in these products is they don’t include an effective anti-oxidant for the sonication of terpenes. Cuz, you know, mixing terps and distillate in beverages is where we’re going. Vitamin E and ascrobic acid aren’t especially effective antioxidants for teprenes or cannabinoids while they’re getting exposed to cavitation. There is one natural anti-oxditant that does work very well with terpenes, and therefore should also work really well with cannabinoids.
I already listed the only emulsifier in the system: modified coconut oil. Use Google Scholar to find more about the different types of modified coconut oils which act as emulsifiers. These are enigmatically modified, which can be done with purchased enzymes or a bioreactor with yeast.
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Our product does NOT contain any modified coconut oil, it is also free of polysorbate 80 and PEG, and FYI, our surfactants to oil ratio is less than 1:1 (when used in the recommended ratio of 4 parts Pre-Mix: 1 Part Active), and our product does contain both water and oil side antioxidants. Our Nano Pre-Mix is NOT similar to what axiom or industrial sonomechanics is offering. Our product can be loaded up to about 7% active ingredient without sacrificing particle size. We have been converting many Axiom and ISM clients to our product over the last year because it is truly better. You can think what you want, but if anyone wants to try out the product we would offer a sample for free.
If anyone can achieve a stable Emulsion with a 40 nanometer volume-weighted average particle size on their own without using Polysorbates or PEG, they clearly know what they’re doing and they may not need our product… For those who would like a turnkey top-tier emulsification solution, we offer reasonable prices and the best support out there. And, I’ll mention it once more, free samples
Oh really? Sure…why don’t you share what it is then?
LOL, “when used in the recommended ratio of 4 parts Pre-Mix: 1 Part Active” so you don’t even understand what SOR is…great 
That’s also why I know it’s modified coconut oil, because of the SOR is so crazy high.
The SOR on my surfactant system, which I described in my previous post, is 0.5:1. Which means I can fit in 10% oil phase, and my surfactant system is good enough to get 10% oil phase to <40-50 nm in 45 minutes.
And it sure if funny that you sell the EXACT same container that ISE and Axioom do, and they both sell modified coconut oil, which also has to be refrigerated:
And it sure if funny that three different companies all sell an identicaal product, and all three claim “patent-pending” status… 
Why I don’t I just call up Qsoncia, and check your credentials? And then ask them about this…
I don’t care if you call it something other than modified coconut oil, because that’s what you’re using. Call it what you want, I don’t care. You got called out for a grossly inferior product at a crazy high price.
Lastly, please address these points:
- What is the max oil load you recommend?
- What is the minimum temperature a 5% oil load finished emulsion may be stored whithout affecting the emulsion?
- What is the prep for your product - is it an yellow-light-orange goo that you need to heat up to >50’C just to mix in the oil phase?
- And I could go on…
BTW, I wouldn’t be going this hard at you if you weren’t acting like a spammer and if you were charging a reasonable price for your product.
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Yeah, I know! I wrote that last night. The reason I know your product has water, vitamin E (the anti-oxidant), potassium sorbate, yada, yada, yada…and modified coconut oil, just like Axiom:
Also, vitamin E is not an effective anti-oxidant for sonciating EOs, terpenes, and probably cannabinoids (considering they’re related to terpenes).