Warm extraction

Hi folks,

I have a question: Everyone here bothers about cold extraction and how about to keep everything cold and how to maintain thhat coolness to get very pristine extracts.
BUT: Why dont make an extract at room temperature? The solvent is going to be much more aggressive and will get everything out you want. Even if you are running cold you have unwanted stuff. So why dont make it warm, have everything much easier and then filter out what you dont need/want.

So idea is:

  • extract warm
  • and ethanol 1:10 (raw oil:ethanol)
  • add bentonite and activated charcoal, let sit and filter through celite 454
  • evaporate ethanol

And ideas, critics, thoughts?

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Most the guys here are pros…they mostly blast fast and cold…the reason, u freeze all the fats and waxes…WE want a pure resin…not full plant matter
…most us think we can aquire ALL the goodies within the first pass…

Just how it is now days… No need for the 2nd step if u don’t need it right?

But some can’t change there ways to try, but TIME the biggest factor ,time and did it yield way mrore after u filter out all the gunk? Usually not but I may be wrong

But that’s why

.a more pure and easily obtain product

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Yeah sure I know there are a lot of pros here, but after all most people here dewax and filter theiur product anyway. So why bother with freezing temperatures when everything could be more relaxed and even faster?

The short answer, warm extraction is alot more work. By extracting cold you won’t pick up as maney unwanted compounds. Why extract something in the first place that you dident need, only to have to later remove it?
Cryogenic temps in etoh extraction will exclude dang near all the plant waxes/lipids, this greatly simplifys filtration and bypasses the winterazation step before distilling the cannabinoids.

Lets say you extract cold here is your workflow
cold etoh->inline filtration->evaporation->distillation

Here is your warm workflow
Hot extract->filter->evaporate to 1:10 ratio->
winterize->filter->evaporate remaining etoh->
distillation.

The winterazation filtration may take you all day to do 100 gal of etoh, extract cold and this is a non issue.
Hope this saves you some work!

Now with the bho extraction, you will need to winterize that no matter what.

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Wash ethanol at cryo temps and no need to winterize. When I wash 15lbs with about 8g of ethanol, I dont want to add an additional step to winterize

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I will be extracting at room temp it’s not worth trying to freeze all of the material and ethanol to cryo temps beforehand I just don’t have the resources to accomplish it properly it’s much easier to winterize the already extracted ethanol then it is to freeze pounds of material and the ethanol itself all wild doing the extract at the cryo Temp. By the time I wash my biomass loaded up into a bubble bag and throw it into the panda it’s already warmed up significantly

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I do both cold and warm Etoh extracts depending on what I’m trying to accomplish with the material

Getting down to cryo temperatures is more of an investment upfront but essentially go from extraction to evaporation. On a personal scale, it may not be economical but on a commercial scale, that could potentially be the difference of 8-10kilos of distillate a week vs 5-6kilos. Warm extraction typically adds a day of post processing for my lab.

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it wont necessarily be faster as a process. if you extract all waxes and lipids your winterization filtration will be much slower than if you extracted very few lipids (you may even be able to skip winterization altogether). The time saved per batch extracting warm is so very little compared to the time lost in the winterization bottleneck.

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I would just like to remind everyone that the term cryo or cryogenic is somewhat specific in terms of what temperature it means (either -150C and colder or -180C and colder).

From Wiki:

It is not well-defined at what point on the temperature scale refrigeration ends and cryogenics begins, but scientists assume a gas to be cryogenic if it can be liquefied at or below −150 °C (123 K; −238 °F).[1] The U.S. National Institute of Standards and Technology has chosen to consider the field of cryogenics as that involving temperatures below −180 °C (93 K; −292 °F). This is a logical dividing line, since the normal boiling points of the so-called permanent gases (such as helium, hydrogen, neon, nitrogen, oxygen, and normal air) lie below −180 °C while the Freon refrigerants, hydrocarbons, and other common refrigerants have boiling points above −180 °C.

I think the range we’re working in for cannabis extraction (-40C to around -80C) is better termed “subzero”, but that’s just my opinion. Saying cryo sounds nice and scientific but is just plain incorrect usage of the term, IMO.

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So with etoh you seem to be right (if you have the subzero tech).

But now the same thing with BHO. You said you have to winterize anyways. How does the terpene and cannabinoids spectrum change when extracted warm?

Well certainly more “stuff” will be extracted warm, although it might not be the target compounds. Usually people will run crude in a cls warm because it is most cost effective, especially when you might find yourself stripping 500lbs+ of trim.

The main difference between bho and etoh are solvent polarity. warm etoh= very dark product because of the water solubles that it co extracts,
on the otherhand butane is fairly nonpolar, and won’t take as much water soluble stuff like chlorphil and sugars.

So there are actually people running room temperature bho because of costs!?

I have to state, that these amounts (500lbs) are quite insane for me. I personally am interested in how it works not on processing these amounts.

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So what do you want to accomplish? What are the different results you produce and why?

I see most of you work on really big scale and do it commercially. This seems to be the game changer because it brings along higher investment and better equipment. Also the need to work productive…

My intent was to understand why you do all the hustle with freezing - now i Know ^^

yes, with well water cooling the heat exchangers on the pump.

Is most of your warm ethanol post-processing time taken up by winterization? If so, couldn’t this time be minimized by methanol room temp winterization?

I’m on a very small scale extracting about 30lbs monthly as a hobby and I’m trying to decide on whether to use cold or warm ethanol, leaning towards warm ethanol since it’s most economical to extract without the cost of dry ice and room temp methanol winterization doesn’t seem to be too long

Not necessarily…I have my process fairly dialed in where its just a matter of placing my solution in my cryo-freezer at the end of a work day for about 14-16hrs. I come in the next morning and filter

I’ve read other members using methanol for their winterization but am unfamiliar with the process. It sounds to me that it would help cut down the winterization time but just cant speak on it as i have no experience

It really all depends on what you intend to make. My process has evolved over the course of being a member in this community and dont really run ‘warm’ anymore. Reason being is that I felt it just created more work for me in other areas of the process. Any of my products that are not turned into distillate are extracted around -70°C. All my distillate is extracted around -30°C (less time/effort prepping)

With the volume you’re working with, I would still recommend putting in the effort to get as cold as you can. The cost of getting down to at least below freezing temperatures are still more economical than the various filtration medias you will need to acquire to clean up all the undesirables from your warm extract.

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Thanks for the info! I guess it seems like I’ll be going with dry ice bucket tek.
I’ve been reading around the forum and a lot of people say that running cold ethanol will require multiple washes of the biomass to get all of the cannabinoids out while warm ethanol will pull all of it out in a single run, so running at -30C do you do multiple washes on the same stuff?

Also at -30C do you have any issues with pulling chlorophyll or other undesirables?

I used to do a second wash which would always be set aside for distillate

However, I had a batch tested several months ago, pre and post extraction - my post extraction results showed <1% of total cannabinoids and have since decided that getting the last little bit was not worth my cost in time and labor. I personally think how well you break down and prep your material for extraction are more of a contributing factor for retreiving MAJORITY of the desired compounds in one wash.

At -30°c, I definitely still see a lot of chlorophyll but see much less water solubles. Chlorophyll is easily removed with a carbon scrub but its the water solubles that can get a bit tricky.