I fucking hate academia. I cannot wait until these colleges collapse under all their own bullshit
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Ah I knew I needed a reason to watch Thank You For Smoking again.
If you haven’t seen this film, it correlates to our industry quite well. Even if it hasn’t been updated to the vaping scene.
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70w really?
To put it in perspective, I vape nicotine juice and run dual stainless steel coils at .14ohms. The wire is a fused clapton, wrapped 7 or 8 times. The coils are huge, 1.5cm wide a piece.
I’m running these monsters at 65w. Any pen style atomizer is designed to run around 10w or less. Everyone knows what happens when you run more power through a circuit than it’s designed to handle. Metal will degrade and melt. This isn’t rocket science lol but the idiots who believe this really need some education.
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“I get paid to talk.
I don’t have an MD or a law degree.
I have a bachelor’s in kicking ass and taking names.
You know that guy that can pick up any girl? I’m him on crack.”
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Exactly. It’s unfortunate since with a topic of this magnitude, you’d like to read through the study & feel like there’s a lot too unpack. Instead, this is all vague.
While they list VaporFi (and even link to them in the official study for whatever reason) as the source of the juice, they say nothing about the hardware aside from the heating element. We know nothing about the atomizer or cart itself, wicking material, nor what is being used to supply power to the atomizer.
This is problematic since this scenario might not be indicative of how the end user utilizes the product.
If this is a vape cart:
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That 50/50 ratio is going to be way too thin- even before it’s heated.
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There’s not many mods out there that are made to hit carts with bottom airflow. The typical 510 connection is going to be seated too low which means you’re effectively just heating the bottom of the cart.
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Most importantly- you’re not ripping a cart at 70W without a high likelihood of catastrophic failure on the cart. A press fitting or even a screw on can pop off at wattage below that.
How is the hardware running for two hours?:
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Was the hardware modified? Nearly every box mod has a board that is meant to protect the device from heat, excessive wear/drain on the cells & fire duration. Even custom firmware like ArcticFox will only let you extend the fire cut-off to 60 seconds. It’s obviously not a mech as you wouldn’t get 60 or 70W consistently as the power drained.
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How is mod itself being powered? Is it running off a set of cells or is this running pass-through which inherently puts more stress on the device?
Somewhat interesting that they mentioned stainless steel did not produce any issues when nichrome is made from nickel & chromium as well, albeit different percentages. With that, you’d think we would’ve seen a lot more incidents given how widespread Ni80 usage is with the cloud bros.
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The “Idiots” who believe this, are the ones the politicians are trying to sell to, and they know their target market quite well. It’s studies like these that get used as ammo, and a non-vaper won’t know shit about Wattage. Heck I didn’t until I bought my first mod for my first cart. It scared the hell out of me. So I started very, very low.
The way the world works burns me to bits…
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The current state of knowledge is that ketene (from vit E) is unlikely to be the culprit because it’s only formed at high temps, well above any temps people vape disty at, including dry hits of cannabis vape coils.
The reason some studies find ketne from vit E is they’re using nic vape carts (e-cigarettes) and pure vit E. Nic vapes, especially sub-ohm, can and do reach into temps exceeding 600-700’c (up to 1,000’C) on dry hits and therefore do produce ketene gas.
It’s a fact vit E alone won’t product ketene gas until it’s heated to at least 650’c…
It’s not at all clear vit E is the culprit of EVALI. But because it’s an easy target it gets the blame…without getting proven to be the cause.
This is borne out because although drums and drums of vit E are still sold in LA for vape juice today, there are no more recorded EVALI cases. Also, the first use of vit E for vaping started in early 2018, but the first EVLI case wasn’t until 13 months later in early 2019 and 2,000 miles away. Occam’s Razor…
So far it’s been found EVALI is not caused by vit E affecting lung surfactanct, it’s not caused lipoid pneumonia from vit e, and thus far no research has found its caused by ketene gas (from vit E) because cannabis vape batteries just don’t get that hot and there is no residual ketene gas (if it’s created at all) from lung fluid samples.
This study has an interesting paragraph regarding metals and other catalysis in how they may affect ketene production at 326’C. Which is hotter than vape pens get unless they’re malfunctioning or someone is sucking on an empty cart with the volts as high as possible:
And check out these studies as well:
Is EVALI the new scapegoat for every abnormal chest imaging?
Measurement of heating coil temperature for e-cigarettes with a “top-coil” clearomizer
E-cigarette, or Vaping Product-Associated Lung Injury (EVALI): Seeking the Toxicant(s)
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My mod has got cranked all the way up in my pocket. Whenever that happens you feel like you inhaled death and whatever coil was in there tastes like burnt popcorn from then on… These studies are a joke! Maybe when they do cigarette tests, they should burn the filter too🤦♂️
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I used to know a guy that sat in front of a smoking box all day for Philip Morris back when they’d give you a carton for taking a tour of the factory. I wish I still knew him. He used to talk about how they only had him do tests they already knew the answers to. I wish I’d asked all the questions I have now.
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Anyone seen this? Suggests there’s a group of patients with damage from caustics in the lungs
I sent an email asking for more info but haven’t heard back
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Yeah, made it way around here a few times. He find no lipoid pneumonia and didn’t think the lung surfactants are being effected, but he does see that damage.
That damage can’t come from what they blame currently, vitamin E acetate releasing toxic ketene gas, until its super heated to 700’C+, or vaped at very high temp (around 300’C) with metals like copper. See my post: Vape associated lung injury caused by heating elements - or more big tobacco fuckery? - #15 by anon87263109
Right now drums of vitamin E acetate are sold on Skid Row. And for a full 13 months before the first case of EVALI in Wisconsin, vitamin E acetate was sold by the drum load on Skid Row and LA. The onset time of EVALI is 7-10 days.
So to me, they have no clue what it is.
It is very unlikely to be their current suspect: vitamin E acetate. Because it doesn’t cause lipoid pneumonia, it doesn’t affect lung surfactants to loose effectiveness, it doesn’t release ketene gas until vaped at >700’C or >300’C with metals, and it was vaped for 13 months before, and 12 months after, the first and last identified case of EVALI (even though onset time is 7-10 days for EVALI).
It’s a mystery. And I think the culprit is maybe a bad batch of a cutting agent, or some untested analyte - the CDC only tested 17 suspected compounds…
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It was a bad batch of delta-8 that did it.
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Sorry, after rereading your message:
The current thought is EVALI is caused by that tissue damage to the lungs he is talking about. And some researchers think ketene gas may be the culprit because it’s produced as a degradation product from vitamin E acetate when ti’s heated to greater than 700’C or 300’C+ with some metals.
The current scientific/medical consensus is EVALI is not caused by lipoid pneumonia or lung surfactant disruption.
That would make sense, acid in the D8 maybe. Which when vaped will cause damage to tissue as described.
bad conversions are my pet theory, but I can’t really substantiate it
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Makes perfect sense. And had not occurred to me before right now. Thanks guys!
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Any labs run tests for residual tosic acid? I’m genuinely curious
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Nope. Not from the CDC, Mayo, etc.
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I always wondered if the VEA was in some way reacting with catalysts in converted cannabinoids. Reason I entertained this idea was converted D9 did seem to be strongly linked with all of this. There were reports of small amounts of D8 showing up in black market carts showing up during the exact same time frame. The researchers noted this had never been seen before in confiscated cartridges but I do not recall there ever being any further investigation on chemical synthesis being involved. I’m curious if other facilities were unable to distinguish the difference between D8 and D9 so this correlation went underreported. That’s been my pet theory. I just think if it were residual tosic alone that we would be hearing reports about it again in huge volumes with all the garage delta 8 floating around on the open market now.
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I too recall news reports about D8. Check out the report I shared which discusses VEA and ketene and other reactants:
E-cigarette, or Vaping Product-Associated Lung Injury (EVALI): Seeking the Toxicant(s)