Okey dokey bud. Lol
People are so funny. “There’s no study proving that jumping off a bridge will kill you.”
Go jump off a bridge then, lmao.
If people had been jumping off bridges for 1000 years and consistently NOT dying 99% of the time, then yeah, I would have good reason to doubt it.
2 Likes
Like every person in Tonga?
1 Like
That’s my point.
There are lots people that drink kava every day for 3-5 years and their liver shuts down. Sometimes it takes 10 or 20 years.
Roughly the same can be said about alcohol, except it’s rare that a 3 year alcoholic needs a liver transplant.
Not quite.
In Tonga, kava is like alcohol and drunk nightly at kalapu (Tongan for “club”), which is also called a faikava (“to do kava”). Only men are allowed to drink the kava , although women who serve it may be present.
Alright every “man”. Wow, what a relevant contribution to the argument.
2 Likes
Yeah, half your argument is wrong. Lol
Well actually there are 100s of thousands of people drinking natural kava every day and the cases of anyones liver shutting down can be counted on one hand quite literally. I mean get a load of this excerpt from that report:
“Clinical surveillance of Aboriginal people in northern Australia using kava beverage for
20 years has not documented any cases of hepatic failure attributable to kava, despite
clear evidence of excessive consumption (Clough et al 2002a, Clough et al 2003a,
Mathews et al 1988).”
Not only could you not say that about alcohol, you couldn’t say that about freaking aspirin.
1 Like
“The association between the use of kava products and hepatotoxicity has prompted many countries, including Germany, Switzerland, France, Canada, and the United Kingdom, to take regulatory actions, ranging from warning consumers to removing kava-containing products from the marketplace. On March 25, 2002, the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition (CFSAN), U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) issued a Consumer Advisory entitled “Kava-containing dietary supplements may be associated with severe liver injury” to the public (8, 9).”
“The effects of the long-term consumption of kava have not been documented adequately. Preliminary studies suggest possible serious organ system effects. The potential carcinogenicity of kava and its principal constituents are unknown.”
Look man, this is it for me, I’m bored. Idc if you believe me, chug kava til you’re yellow in the face.
I just wanted to warn people.
Well, you’re free to think i’m an idiot if you want. I gave what I think is a hell of a lot of documented evidence for my argument. It’s not like I have any product to sell or ulterior motive here. In the end, anyone who wants can feel free to read the reports posted by both sides, and make their own call where the preponderance of evidence lies. So you’re probably right that it’s a good time to call it off.
1 Like
I know you’re not an idiot, I also know you haven’t talked to many long term kava users.
No hard feelings dude.
Oh please. I don’t know what a “lot” is, but studies encompassing thousands of participants, is a “lot” more than you’ve talked to either. Just had to have one more smartass statement on the way out huh.
I’ll look for the extract so that I can buy some just to give it a shot. And what’s this about this weed and where can I buy it? I’m honestly only trying to use things that mother nature give us. I’m honestly not trying to adulterate it in any way because I know what will happen from the plants and I was prescribed all these medications that they have no clue the action of working or even if they do
Continuing to read the thread from this comment though understand
I really love this
“If people had been jumping off bridges for 1000 years and consistently NOT dying 99% of the time, then yeah, I would have good reason to doubt it”
I’m at my three comment limit so I had to make an edit just thought I’d say
I’m happy to hear that about the kratom I know it’s working for me
1 Like
And the way everything builds up in your system a lot of people don’t understand that but I spend a lot of time reading about it
I’m not trying to be a smartass. Am I wrong? Have you talked to even 5 long term kava users?
I hung out at kava bars for quite awhile. I had 7 long term (5+ year daily) users tell me not to use it every day. All of them ended up jaundiced and sick, multiple times over the course of their usage, one guy needed a liver transplant and still used it afterwards, although not as much. Some people it seems like it’s not an issue, I even think certain cultures have evolved to be able to handle it better than other people.
Seems like if it’s not in your DNA to deal with it, it might cause a problem, based on what I’ve read and talked to people about.
2 Likes
Yes, I have and i’ve gone to some of the kava bars in PDX a fair amount. I mean I was introduced to the extract by someone who was using it for years and obviously, had good things to say. I used the extract daily for a while, but then I got bored and stopped.
Your claim in short, is that based on your personal experience, when you talk to people who use Kava, a large proportion (what, would you say maybe 20% of the people you talked to?) had ill effects. That’s all well and good but it doesn’t match my personal experience at all. I’ve never met one person who got jaundice. It doesn’t seem like it matches anyone else’s in this threads experience either.
But i’m happy to completely set that aside, because far more important than my personal experience, it’s difficult to square with the fact that studies with thousands of participants can never find more than a handful of serious issues to write up in case studies. The ones you yourself posted included!
I wish this discussion could be carried out on the level of science, without the need for any sarcasm or bare assertions. I’m happy to talk about it, I have no agenda.
I do have a problem with so easily dismissing epidemiological evidence for anecdotes. It reminds me of every conversation I’ve had with people who want weed to stay illegal. How many conversations have we all had like this: “weed made all my friends lazy” – “well actually, statistically speaking smokers are just as successful as nonsmokers” – “well you clearly just a pothead with no idea how it works in the real world”?
The problem with that line of argument is it’s unfalsifiable and therefore it’s not science. I’ve talked to more than 5 long term users, contrary to your assertion. But what if I came to you and said “oh yeah, I know 500”. You’d just say you didn’t believe me. And if I said “i’ve done it for 15 years with no effects”, you’d just say I was lucky.
Is your argument that the studies are fabricated? Or that health organizations are covering up evidence of Kava’s dangers? Or just that you won’t believe them on bare principle because they contradict your personal experience?
If it’s the first two then you can say so but I don’t think anyone will find it persuasive. If it’s the third, there’s no point in talking further because you’re making a deliberate choice to not admit contrary evidence.
On the other hand, if you believe the studies are real studies, and just think they’re outweighed by more/better evidence to the contrary, then we’re in the realm of science again and i’d love to keep talking – but then that kind of “jumping off a bridge” analogy is totally uncalled for.
1 Like
You talked about a culture that used it for a culturally significant period of time, and linked to a study of the same constant.
I linked studies that said said there’s evidence for good and bad things. Multiple governments have issued warnings. Do governments issue warnings for no reason? (I think so but do you?)
Literally the opposite of that, as mentioned above. The FDA has issued warnings.
What are you talking about?
Just your opinion, I like to exaggerate, it makes a point.
For the record I thought this conversation was about a cool new drink thing…
Everything has negative side effects literally EVERYTHING!!! I can’t even believe I’m having to say this but I appreciate both of your arguments
2 Likes
You do realize we are on a cannabis forum right lol? If i thought every drug the government warned about was really dangerous, i wouldn’t be in this industry.
Actually my personal opinion is that government orgs exaggerate the harm of every psychoactive, as a general policy. Because like Ken Kesey said, “if you get high, you might see the falsity of the fabric of the society we live in.”
It’s not a matter of a little harm or no harm. If everyone who did kava got liver failure in 10 years (or even 1/5th of people), it would be absolutely epidemic in countries like Tonga. They’d be dropping like flies.
And if everyone who did Kava got liver failure in 10 years (or even 1/5th), you wouldn’t see studies saying it “might” pose a danger, you’d see “Kava, public health crisis, oh my god people are dying by the thousand”.
That’s just not what we see and that’s not even what the FDA is claiming.
4 Likes